Power steering groan after replacement ! @$%&

[nutzforporsche]

OK I have a delima.

I just replaced the power steering pump with a brand new unit. Replaced the reservoir also these can plug up an case cavitation or fluid starvation to the pump. I put in new dextron ATF fluid and did the 45 minute steering wheel left and right thing to get the air bubbles out. Well..the flipping thing after a second bleed is still groaning!

The whole steering rack is clean and there is no leakage what so ever. Even under the boots. I do not understand what I'm doing wrong. The only thing I can add is the little black plastic drain plug that screws on the underside of the rack broke off. The top of it basically crumbled and the rest stayed in the unit. No fluid is leaking out at all.

The car is a 87 944S with 91K miles.

I'm ready to take a sedge hammer to this thing! Save me oh wise ones!

Thanks !

Steve

[rcecale]

Perhaps a silly questions, but...are your front tires off the ground during the bleeding process?

Randy

[John_AZ]

Have you seen these photos?

From WSM:



My rack info:



GL
John_AZ

[nutzforporsche]

Randy,

Not a silly question at all.
Best practice, to make sure square one was covered.
The first time I did it yes, the wheels were off the ground. The following times no.
I saw a nice incendiary grenade at the gun show last weekend.
I bet that would fix the problem real good. At least I'll know why it is broke

Semper Fi

Steve


P.S

John I did not see those instructions.
Had I checked my manual again. Me thinks my idle brain would have seen it.
One little thing about a leaky O-ring on a line got my little brain cells smoldering.
I'm going to get this thing back in the air tonight after work and check all the connections again.
I'll let you all know what the issue was.

Five bucks says the problem with this issue, is the loose nut behind the steering wheel......again.

[sweetskillsrk]

I'm not entirely sure with Porsches, cause I haven't had to fool with my power steering at all so far, but I know for many other cars once a new power steering pump is installed it will groan for a few hundred miles. I would think the groaning is just from it being broken in? Of course I'm not sure how bad its groaning, but I wouldn't worry about it too much if there are no leaks and it steers fine, it sounds to me like you've done everything right. If it doesn't go away in a couple hundred miles then I'd start to worry about it.

Landen
______________
1988 Porsche 944

[s928s]

The groan may be air trapped in the fluid, this may happen when air is traped in the system. If the fluid in the resivoir, when running, has a lighter or pink-ish color. I has air trapped in the fluid. This will settle out when the car has sat idle for a while, not running. Or, by appling vaccume to the resivoir by means of an adapter to assist in drawing the air out.

[nutzforporsche]

Well....

You guys are going to laugh your butts off.


Remember I told you that the problem with the car was the loose nut behind the steering wheel?

I meant it.

I got the car back up in the air and followed the procedure to the T. The issue still didn't go away, groan, groan groan. CRAP!

I decided to get a bright light and slide under the car. Lo and behold I see a small drip from the left side of the rack. Right on the allen bolt / hardline that I took off the last time to completely drain and flush the system.

I decided to take the bolt out and once I loosened it almost all the way, I saw the error of my ways. The line is hard as you know and has the round bulb on the end. That round bulb has two rubber washers on each side. Well dummy me had accidentally put a copper washer on it. Well this kept the allen bolt from not seating properly and it was sucking air around the bolt into the rack. Once I corrected this, the system bled down perfectly and GOD it is so great to be able to turn the wheel and it is quiet as a mouse.

I want to thank you guys for helping me brainstorm this problem!!!!!!!!!

Steve

[TibetanT]

Good for you, Steve! You found the culprit.

Like I always say, "it's always something fundamental."

[rcecale]

Steve,

Sounds like you're talking about the Banjo Bolts that connect the hard lines to the rack, correct?

I was under the impression that copper washers were the prescribed washer for those. Same for the banjo bolt going into the pump.



I'm sure our host here sells those, but I've actually spoken with the folks at Rennbay and they told me that, while they "used" to sell rubber washers for the banjos, they found that the rubber ones worked only in theory, and not so well in practical application. The rubber seals were failing.

Congrats on your repair, way to stick to it! I just wanted to share what I've "learned"

Semper fi!

Randy

[nutzforporsche]

HOLD THE DOGS! WE HAVEN'T TREED THE COON YET!

I get up this AM and guess what? It started its crap up again. I'm going to run this car off a cliff. This is the fifth Porsche I have owned and I see some of the dumbest unthoughtout crap they put in these cars. From the timing and balance belt fiasco. The PAINFUL procedure to just change out the clutch and pressure plate to this crap. Not even an America car has this much issue bleeding a power steering rack. I say this as a former master mechanic.

I'm starting to get a bad taste in my mouth. With having to try and overlook all the quirky mechanicals, over the many years owning and working on these cars.


Randy,
The one I'm talking about is, if you slide under the car and look at the left hand side of the rack and just to the right of the rubber bellows. You will see a connection that has a allen head. This is the one I screwed up on. I thought I had this thing licked when I fixed that. Not a chance in hell it seems.

I'll try once more this evening to locate the source of the air getting into the rack.
If I fail and this thing does this again. I'm going to take the car out in the back 40 and try out my new Bushmaster AR on it. I'll give it a VERY valid reason to not function properly.

[nutzforporsche]

Problem identified...finally

The issue all was the hose that goes from the side of the PS pump back to the rack/pinion. After me fixing the other leak this new leak popped up because the pressure obviously went up. This line has a hairline crack in it from salt and other caustics wearing on it. The crack is in the metal sleeve right where the rubber and the metal are joined. The crack is just large enough to intoduce air into the system.

Part ordered.


I feel better knowing what the problem was. I would have hated to turn the Bushmaster loose on this car. Even as much as it frustrates me.

Hopefully this post will help anyone searching out a similar problem.

[rcecale]

Originally Posted by nutzforporsche

After me fixing the other leak this new leak popped up because the pressure obviously went up.

Way to hang in there, Steve! Your "stick-to-it-ism" seems to have paid off for you! Good on ya!

Your comment above seems to be appropriate to a situation I'm now seeing. I was having some major issues with my own power steering system, it wouldn't bleed, was groaning, overflowing fluid (dexron), and it was also leaking pretty badly...it was a mess.

John_AZ pointed me towards Rennbay and their pump re-seal kit. I installed that yesterday and now my power steering works better than ever. THANKS JOHN!!!

Anywhoot, as you stated, the increased pressure has caused another leak to appear. The pic below is of the left (driver's) side, looking from the front of the car, towards the back.

It actually looks as though something is missing here. Feeling into the hole with my finger, there seems to be some kind of plastic or something kinda soft in there. Is there some sort of plug or something that belongs here?



Randy

[John_AZ]

Originally Posted by rcecale

the increased pressure has caused another leak to appear. The pic below is of the left (driver's) side, looking from the front of the car, towards the back.

It actually looks as though something is missing here. Feeling into the hole with my finger, there seems to be some kind of plastic or something kinda soft in there. Is there some sort of plug or something that belongs here?



Randy

Please do not shoot the messinger. Nice work.

The location, without looking, is the "Centering position " rack opening. If you were to crawl under and look up in the hole, when the wheels are straight forward you will see a "dimple" in the shaft of the rack. The idea is to place a plug with a pin and hold the shaft while you attach it to the steering column drive shaft above the rack. I made my own homemade tool from an old brake line.



You can plug it with a proper fitting rubber plug for the time being to temporarily stop the drip.

Looking at your rubber accordion PS shaft boot, the rack needs to be rebuilt or exchanged for a rebuilt. Some members say the process is easy. Check www.arnnworx.com for procedure. Kits are available. Do the work slowly and do not scratch any part of the PS rack if you decide to DIY. Can be done if you are exact in seal replacement and shaft is not pitted or damaged.

You can get a rebuilt from Pelican.

I bought a rebuilt from www.autozone.com. Using a GA zip code of 30066, the rack should be about $182 for a rebuilt exchange with a LLT-limited live time warranty.
http://www.autozone.com/selectedZip,30066/initialAction,partProductDetail/initialpartType,00163/initialR,1579353/initialvehicleId,1675201/shopping/selectZip.htm

If you decide to do the rack with any method, replace the tie rod ends if cracked and get new crush washers for the banjo bolts to the lines. Alignment is also required.

Good luck,

Messinger out...

John_AZ

[rcecale]

Originally Posted by John_AZ

The location, without looking, is the "Centering position " rack opening. If you were to crawl under and look up in the hole, when the wheels are straight forward you will see a "dimple" in the shaft of the rack. The idea is to place a plug with a pin and hold the shaft while you attach it to the steering column drive shaft above the rack. I made my own homemade tool from an old brake line.

You can plug it with a proper fitting rubber plug for the time being to temporarily stop the drip.

John, you're right on the money! That's exactly what this location is. This picture from the Arnnworx site shows it much better than I did.



And this is what they say about it: This (above) is likely to be what you first see when you begin looking for the source of your hydraulic fluid leak. The fluid will probably be coming from one or both of the boots and may also be coming from the small hole in the picture. The hole should have a rubber or plastic dust plug in it (the plug is only intended to keep dust out, not to keep fluid in). Normally, there should not be fluid in this cavity. This hole is here so that when an alignment of the steering is done, the mechanic can visually confirm that the rack is centered. In the hole you can see a small dimple (almost hidden by shadow), the dimple indicates the rack center point (wheels should be straight ahead).

You're right in that it looks like its time to replace the rack. Unfortunately, I think for the time being, I'll just be plugging the whole and monitoring the fluid coming from the boots.

Since there is no head on the existing plug, I'm going to have to try to work it out some other way. Should I be cautious of losing the plug up inside there, or is it actually machined to close tolerance, giving the plug nowhere to retreat into?

Also, what size plug is that on your home-made centering tool. Figured that would be a good place to start while sizing up my own replacement plug.

Thanks again for all your guidance on this. You're really coming through with TONS of valuable information!

Randy

[nutzforporsche]

Thanks Randy.

I was damned and determined to figure this issue out. I'm also happy to have started this thread. I never knew about the little dimple under the dust plug. The one that crumbled in my hands. Great info to know, if I have to re-center my wheels for any reason.

I'll be so glad to get this thing fixed! Part should be in tomorrow. WOOHOO

Semper Fi,

[rcecale]

Originally Posted by nutzforporsche

The only thing I can add is the little black plastic drain plug that screws on the underside of the rack broke off. The top of it basically crumbled and the rest stayed in the unit. No fluid is leaking out at all.

As I showed in the pic above, my plug was practically missing too. No head to grab ahold of to pull it out. I took a sharp scribe and picked out all the little bits of plastic that was up inside the hole. Sure enough, just like indicated in the picture, there was the lettle detent in the rack up inside there.

Wanting to fill the plug cavity, I took a few measurements and did a really good eyeballing of the threads and such and then headed off to the local parts store.

Scouring through the aisles, looking for anything that might work, I settled on a few things to try. Took them home and the very first thing I opened worked like a champ.

I used a brass NPT square head plug, which threaded nicely up into the hole. Pulled it back out, wrapped that guy with a few layers of teflon tape and back in she went.

Sure, there are a few other leaks to worry about that are much more pressing, but for some reason, this one bothered the hell out of me. As John said, I am definitely due for a replacement rack, but in the meantime, I'll fix the remainder of my "new" leaks, one at a time.

Randy

[kuehl]

Take a "pick" to extract the remaining portion of the rubber plug, clean bore threads with a Q-tip. Pick up a 10 mm 1mm pitch bolt with a length of 10 to 15 mm nominal. Place a dab of RTV (not locktite) on the threads and screw it. However, you will still have to repair the source of the leak in the rack.

With regard to the 6 banjo bolt fittings on the rack:
A) the two bolts that hold the inlet and outlet lines require copper or aluminum crush washers, one on each side of the banjo fitting.
B) the 4 bolts that hold the two metal hydraulic ones (the lines that handle fluid between the spool valve to the rack's cylinder) require o-rings, one on each side of the banjo fitting.

PM if you need further help

[rcecale]

Originally Posted by nutzforporsche

I'll be so glad to get this thing fixed! Part should be in tomorrow. WOOHOO

The above was posted on the 10th, it's now the 13th. Well, come on, man! What's the verdict?

Randy

[nutzforporsche]

Sorry guys for the delay!!!!!

I have been real busy with work.

Drum roll please the issue was....


Bad supply and return lines to the reservoir. The line had cracked and there was just a little ATF fluid on them. Did Steve pay attention to this. NOOOOOO he did not. It didn't dawn on me that if a little sweating of fluid could get out. Air could get in. DUH!


Well I tried to replace the large hose with the same size of hose that came off . No go I used everything except KY jelly to get it on. I'm married and we no longer ...well anyway you get the picture.

I tried everything to get that damn hose on. I ended up after an hour cussing real loud and slinging the piece of crap across the room. I got in the car and went to autozone and bought a 5/8 hose and it fit perfectly. No cussing or anything. Imagine that?!

I then used the other new hose and replaced that as well. The bleed of the system took 5 minutes if that. Not a noise one from under the hood.

Daddy is happy.

[rcecale]

Silence is golden, my friend!

Randy