Starter Problem

[Griffinroydonal]

Starter problem - Car starts up and runs fine and a few seconds the starter sounds like it is engaging again. You can turn off the key and the starter is still spinning. This sounds like the whole thing is going to fly apart. You must disconnect the battery to get starter to stop spinning. Do I just change the starter or look for other grounding problems in the loop ?

[ideola]

Stuck solenoid? Try removing and cleaning the solenoid. They are prone to exposure to oil and brake fluid (from the clutch), which can gum up the works. While you're in the vicinity, you should try to verify if there's a leak coming from your master or slave cylinder, which would be an early indication of needing to replace either or both of them...

OTOH, if the starter turns out to be toast, now might be a good time to consider an upgrade to the IMI Hi-Torque, which we're currently running 10% discount on through the end of the month...

[Griffinroydonal]

There are no leaks as the car looks like brand new under it. I was suprised there were no leaks. I need to add that I had starter #1 on the car from the factory and it finally died , I replaced it with the starter #2 which is on the car now. Starter #2 was off a parts car that sat for quite some time and that may be part of the problem. I checked all the wiring to be sure it was not broken in any places and found no faults. I didn't know if a relay or something may be bad.

[John_AZ]

Since the bottom of the car is spotless----------------DIY clean and oil

VWvortex Forums: DIY Starter Upgrade/Repair/troubleshooting/Replacement (manual tranny)

If you find a broken internal white plastic cap or just mucked the rebuild go with a Bosch remanufactured unit or the superior upgrade from ideola.

GL
John_AZ

[SolReaver]

The EXACT same thing just happened to me!

What I did: jack up the car or put it on ramps. Disconnected neg lead (duh) and remove starter. two 19 mm bolts and a 13mm nut on the starter solenoid power side plus a small(8mm?) signal nut.

I then Bench tested the starter. it spun without any power to the signal terminal. (not good). This meant the solenoid was bad, or at least naughty.

Remove the solenoid by taking out the three screws (flat on big starter, phillips on little starter) with an impact driver. Please note an impact driver is the way to go for this If you don't have one, get one.

I then bench tested the solenoid with a meter. continuity with the plunger in and no continuity with the plunger out. It tested good. Huh? Best I can figure is that the solenoid was stuck in the bore. So, I rebuilt the starter motor (10 min with a screwdriver, bent wire and sandpaper to refresh the glazed brushes and armature) and put it all back together again. I bench tested it again and....Viola! It worked champion!

I suspect your solenoid is stuck as well. Clean it up and rebuild the starter motor and you might be on the road in record time. Silicone lube on the solenoid plunger and locktite on the solenoid screws.

[SolReaver]

Hey john: good link, BUT the starter is NOT the same as the bosh unit on 944s the rebuild instructions although better than nothing, are not totally accurate. i have been meaning to do a Starter rebuild how to for a while now. Interested?

Griff: take some pics while you are doing this...we will make a starter rebuild thread.

Once you remove the bendix (solenoid)
Starter itself:
Clean the starter. Remove two bushing cover screws. remove bushing cover. Remove spacer(s) and clip from end of armature shaft. REmove two end cap screws. Remove end cap. Take a small piece of coat hanger or similar wire shaped into a little hook and pull back the springs that hold the brush blocks that are attached to the body while sliding out the brush blocks. Remove the brush block plate. Take the armature out of the housing and disconnect the housing from the nose.

Inspect everything. (Drive, Bushings, armature...etc..)

Sand clean the armature contacts. sand flat the brushes. (med grit sandpaper, finish with fine). clean everything.

Re assemble and bench test.

[SolReaver]

A little grease or anti siese on the bushings and the washer(s) and clip on the armature end is not a bad Idea. Sealant on the bushing cover is not a bad idea either.

The solenoids are considered non-rebuildable, but I think I found a way. Most of the time you are better off buying a new one if your solenoid is toast. Note: there are two different starters that fit. A big one and a small one. i like the big ones but the small ones work fine. Rebuild is essentially the same.

Check the bushings for play by fitting the shaft into the end cap or nose upside down and wiggle it a bit. It should have amost no play at all. A little play for the drive is OK but they do wear out eventually so I like to give my rebuilds a new drive and a new bendix if possible.

Finally, Paint. Black is traditional but you can use and color you have lying around. I perfer to paint it after it is rebuilt.

John: Do you know of a solenoid, bushing, drive and Brush block source? I'd be happy to rebuild a few for people if it didn't conflict with our esteemed sponsor. Not sure what the postage costs would be on a starter though.

BTW, I used to rebuild these things for a living...I have done THOUSANDS. It is not that hard, but it can get tricky.

[John_AZ]

Sol,
Good idea. Now, tell me how you can get the brushes together in 10 minutes once the armature is pulled? Especiall when the carbon brushes pop out of the holder and are twisted....

Here is another trouble shooting starter page for Griffin...
Starting & Charging System Troubleshooting

And this is what Bosch says....
http://www.boschautoparts.com/Technical%20Resources/Alternators%20and%20Starters/StartingSystems.pdf

[SolReaver]

John, as always...you are the man. Thanks for pointing out that little detail that could be helpful to Griff. Either, you a) use an old socket or small piece of pvc pipe slightly smaller or the same size as the armature contact end and slide them off the armature and onto the "pipe or socket". or, b) use the wire hook and pull the spring back and pull them out before pulling the brush plate off.

To do the job right you probably wand to pull all the blocks so that you can really clean the plate and get at the blocks. For a professional "Bosch" quality rebuild you would want to de soldier the brushes and replace them with new, but, if there is some good meat on them and it is for your own use (not resale) you can probably re use them. For that matter, a pro rebuild would use all new bushings, drive, and solenoid. The old Bosch solenoids were rebuildable by cleaning the contacts under the cap, the new ones...not so much. whether this is some kind of conspiracy to sell more solenoids or a quality control issue...who knows?

Honestly though, I haven't had much a prob with the blocks turning unless they were really worn. then again I always pull em all back or stuff something in there so they can't go too far in. YMMV. You do have to be careful as to where everything goes back together so it is helpful to take a few pictures or make some drawings before taking it apart. I have flipped a few brush blocks myself on occasion during the rebuild. no biggie, just take em out and put them back in. Like I said it can get tricky.

So.....do you know who stocks rebuild parts? like, brushes, drives, busings, solenoids....etc?

[SolReaver]

Actually, now that I recall I didn't even use a spacer pipe on that last one. the brushes didn't turn after I slid the plate off. After facing them, I just spread them with my fingers and slid them back on the armature. Griff should use a pipe or a tube or something if this doesn't work. But, due to your question I thought I would address your issue. Did that help?

[John_AZ]

Originally Posted by SolReaver

Actually, now that I recall I didn't even use a spacer pipe on that last one. the brushes didn't turn after I slid the plate off. After facing them, I just spread them with my fingers and slid them back on the armature. Griff should use a pipe or a tube or something if this doesn't work. But, due to your question I thought I would address your issue. Did that help?

Excellent!

A simple tip would save a lot of time.

I'll see if I can find a source for internal parts.

On the '87 OEM starter, the white cap inside (just like the VW link showed) was cracked and I was not able to fix.

I got a gently used , low mileage Bosch re-manufactured from a German wrecking yard for $50.

Here is a link I had and it may be a start for solenoids and stuff.
Alternators, Starters and Rubber Tracks www.HolcombeDirect.com

GL
John_AZ
1988 924S 61K + 1987 924S 114K DD

[SolReaver]

Yea, there are a bunch of little tricks. You get the hang of it past the first few dozen rebuilds. The brushes and bushing can probably be sourced through some electric motor supply. The last time I needed brushes I went to such a place and just showed the man the block. He got the replacement out of a bin.

Anyone got some Starter cores they want to donate to the cause?

[Griffinroydonal]

I pulled the starter back out and cleaned and lubed everything. I took scotch brite to the cable ends and reassembled. I also found where the heat shield material was loose and may have been causing a problem also. Car started right up and has been fine - Thanks guys !!

[SolReaver]

On the road again! Grif gets 2 and 2

[mattdavis11]

It's amazing how fast they crank the motor when they are taken apart and cleaned.

[John_AZ]

Originally Posted by SolReaver

Yea, there are a bunch of little tricks. You get the hang of it past the first few dozen rebuilds. The brushes and bushing can probably be sourced through some electric motor supply. The last time I needed brushes I went to such a place and just showed the man the block. He got the replacement out of a bin.

Anyone got some Starter cores they want to donate to the cause?

Sol,

Here is a supplier that has a lot of parts.
How about an alternator voltage regulator for $5.75?
Solenoids from $12 up
Browsing Store - BH,15.0 Volt Set

John_AZ