Noob 944 build??
 

Hello To all. I am thinking of picking up a 944 for a project.Just wondering which cars I should be looking at.Since this will be a project and chances are the power plant wount stay the same I am not looking at any 951's.More along the lines of 944 5 speed cars.I am wondering if there is any body differences as far as 924 and 944's??It seems as 944's have wider fender front and back can anyone confirm this?I am looking for a fixer upper.I'm a Audi mechanic by trade.I am looking for a project for the winter to have some fun with.Also i've done some research regarding engine swap it seems as just about anything can be swapped into these cars.I think I will be looking at a AAN inline 5 cylinder turbo engine from engine.Just wondering if anyone has more information when it comes to performing something like this.Thanks.

im not well versed yet in the porsche arena but - the 924 body wise is more narrow as you said. the 944 has the widebody look.
if you look at wikipedia for 944 it shows the various powerplant changes over the years. progressively up until the 968 change they got more powerful. the 944 s and s2 are more powerful as well (DOHC vs SOHC), but more expensive obviously. 85.5 was a turning point for interiors as well as other things. wikipedia is a great source for the basic info. basically the later the 944 the more hp/tq.
they are all belt driven, and the S/S2 are 16v DOHC with a cam chain.

in the end for me, availability had a great impact on what i got. i wanted a post-85.5 for the interior mostly, but settled on a clean 84 because it was as close to what i wanted as i could find, and i searched for several months within a few hundred miles. the key is patience... wait until the right one pops up. first thing i find out is when the T belt was done last. if they dont know then it probably wasnt well maintained, because thats a very important part of the car. replace every 30k or 5 years. if they have no idea, they probably dont know enough to have maintained it well or done it.

Thanks for your information,I have gone through the wiki page and looked up the specs myself as well.I know there is a difference in interiors and such.I believe 85.5 was when the dash and interior upgrades were finally made to the car.I think I will be looking at a 86 944 at the very least but then again i might wait and see what pops up.Like you said about timing belt and maintnance.Thats the first thing I will do once I pick one of these cars up.

As far as engines go I will Consider maybe a 951 engine swap but well see.I cant seem to find alot of information as far as what kind of power these engines are good for before internals needs to be changed.I know that rods are a weak component on most engines and thats what fails first.I will need to do some more research and see what kind of power can be made with the 951 engine before it needs to be opened up and upgrade the rods/pistons,and valve train up.

If you're looking to put a different engine in it then look for a 951 with a broken or missing engine. I bought a 9.3/10 951 without a shortblock (came with all accessories and head) for less than I could have bought a 4/10 944 and that wasn't too uncommon of a deal.

As an Audi mechanic you should feel at home with a lot of things. The transmissions, with the exception of those in the 924 Turbo (aka 931) are essentially Audi boxes. The car was originally destined to be an Audi-badged sportscar,, but the fuel crisis led Audi to sell back the project to Porsche (who had developed it for them from the start anyway). Nevertheless, All 924s and 944s (with the exception of very late 944s and all 968s) were produced in Neckarslum.

As I'm sure you know, Porsche and Audi have collaborated on many projects, the last probably being the RS2.

Visit Clark's Garage Home Page for an overview of model year changes.

I would recommend an '87 and newer car for a variety of reasons. In 1988 they came with a plastic fuel tank. 1987 cars and later all have suspension for late offset wheels, allowing for a greater selection of OEM Porsche wheels.

An NA 8-valve 2.5 engine isn't good for much power without doing gobs of internal work. Even then, it isn't good for much north of 275 hp.

Look forward to hearing more on your project.

Take care!

I own both cars, a 924S, and a 944 (87 so it has the latter interior). The 924 chassis is a bit lighter but the over all shape is more rounded. The 944 has in my opinion better lines and is a bit wider but generally they are the same chassis. If you are looking to swap the engine I assume you will be keeping the transmission in which case you may want to get a 944 turbo trans as it was a bit more solid and has an LSD. It would be more suited to handle the power of say a V8. As far as the engine compartments, they look very similar and you could most likely fit similar engines in them.

On any note I will say this on engine swaps. There have been many threads here about engine swaps. Mainly LS1's into both 944's and 911's. They all follow a similar trend, a car is bought, and engine is found, a ton of custom parts are paid for, and then many snags are hit. In the end the projects either get abandoned and sold or finished but dont work right etc. I really dont mean to say any thing bad about them but a great deal of research, reading threads here is worth it. The other thing to consider is that the transmissions in these cars were not made to handle the output of say an LS1.

As for something like putting a 951 engine is a 944NA you may as well just buy a non running 951 and get it going. I would not consider a 951 engine in a 944 a swap mainly because of how similar the chassis are and generally the same every thing will be.

A stock 944 can be a great car to drive and own and is worth keeping stock. For the price of an engine swap 944 you can get a running 911 SC coupe which is a great car as well, if you are looking for a Porsche.


Regards
Dave

Thanks French!!I have that site book marked Alot of good information on there.Alot of good DIY and hints and tips as far as replacing parts or taking things apart goes and loads of technical specs.It does look like the transmissions used are very similar if not audi boxes.

I will consider purchasing a project car as long as its complete for the most part or can be driven after some issues are addressed.So i can enjoy the car as a daily driver until i decide which engine I will choose to put in the car and build it up accordingly.

I do agree and totally understand that these transmissions will probablu not hold up for long when using a ls1 or something like that.I dont think i will be putting a ls1 or v8 in one of these cars as I think it will change the weight distribution in the car and make the front end nose heavy making it a pig in the corners.I just might take your advice and try to find a non running 951.However most that Ive seen are going for big money even non running.So I will consider all options.

There was a guy on this forum selling a non running 951 that he was really trying to get rid of just a few weeks ago you may want to contact him if you can. Also post your location so that people can make you aware of local cars or lend a local hand.

Regards
Dave

Just check craigslist regularly and be ready to pounce on a deal. Don't settle for some POS that you will always question spending money on.

Yeah ive been on craigslist I havent see anything that really stood out a couple of 944 but earlier cars which im not a big fan of.I will try and see if that 951 is still available.Ideally something thats needs a motor that popped a timing belt or a trans would be my preference but im open to just about any issues.

There was/is a running 951 in my area that I talked to guy down to FOUR thousand for. The paint was okay, needed to be buffed. Had nice phone dials, interior was maybe 4/10 but it ran and had a new clutch.

Too bad your on the west coast sounds like something that i could possibly pick up.

i literally had a row of like 8 bookmarked tabs along the top of my browser for a few weeks, each was a search for "porsche" under 5000, and in various different locations in oregon and washington. each one basically covered the surrounding craigslists as well.

helpful things in big cities can be searching for "porsche" not 944, also porche, or porshe and common typos. there was one i missed for a long time and it ended up selling out from under me because i found it too late, it was listed as porche not porsche.

heres a site i looked at some. it picks up some from craigslist too
http://claz.org/

I see you are in North Jersey, Im in Westchester NY so if you need a hand with any thing feel free to give me a shout ill do my best if I am around. There are a lot of great P-Car guys in the area that I have met through this forum many of whom I drive with often.

Here is the car that I was talking about in an earlier post

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-924-944-968-technical-forum/709636-need-get-86-951-gone-now.html

Could be worth checking out if its still for sale. Also if you are ok with sharing it you may want to list your price range, people will better be able to guide you if they know what you are willing to spend. A decent running 944 turbo is fetching 7K-12K these days but running ones can be had cheap. I was contacted by a friend recently who was selling a non running 951 I did not follow up (I dont have the garage space) but the car was in jersey ill give him a shout and see what the deal is.

Regards
Dave

Here in Holland there's a guy who built a 944 with an audi 2.3 20v NA engine (7A). The site of his build in English here. He just built it to race, kept it NA, put on the AAN manifold so it would clear the hood.

That's just insane. He custom made so much!

How do you like that exhaust? It's beautiful don't you think... Yup, he's got some skills

I enjoy using SearchTempest Online Classifieds Search - All the Classifieds. One Search., macro cl search.

The Audi 5-cylinder engine will bolt up to the 924 turbo bellhousing....:)

Have fun.

Price range right now I can't comments on that I would say probably anywhere from 1000-5000.Hard to say as I am not sure. Wether I will be looking at just late 944's or 951's.I like the 951 as well but they seem like a rare breed of cars this is why I'm considering picking up a regular 944 abd just dropping a audi motor in it.I have about 2 grand cash and I was considering selling my 2002 gsxr 600 however I haven't made up my mind yet as my wife enjoys taking rides on the bike but we will see.With that being said I'm currently without a car because my wife is driving my audi S4 and her sister is driving her car so I figured if I have to buy another car might as well be something I can have some fun with.If not now then maybe next year I will come across a nice 944 or 951 and pick it up.It all depends what's available.

I know there has been numerous threads on this also.But what about converting a 944N/a to Turbo??Are the engines that much different??I would assume lower comp ratio pistons,sodium filled valve,different dme and of course plumbing and such as well as different trans and clutch.But overall engine block itself and cylinder head are identical with the difference being internals??can anyone tell me if this is the case??

Blocks, cranks, cam, and most of the head are identical. Key difference is pistons, connecting rods, sodium exhaust valves, ceramic liners in exhaust ports. All the manifolds/plumbing swap directly between engines.

Here is an add that Porsche published with all of the things they changed for the 944 turbo

http://944turbo.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/porsche_944_turbo_differences.jpg

One of the turbo guys will have to fill in on exactly how different these things are but that should about cover what was changed. Im sure you can fit the turbo charger its self right to an NA engine but as for the outcome of that I dont know what would happen.


Regards
Dave

Good to Know!!I just might pick up a an 944 and a spare motor to turn into a turbo test mule with the right mods of course.But i guess well see.I have a short list put together as far as those things go.I did not know about the ceramic liners in the exhaust ports.I believe the cmahsaft is different also.

You'd save yourself time and probably money just by getting the turbo to start with...

And Dave, awesome picture! Wish my 944 still looked like that :)

Im going to bring some thing up here that may be a very unpopular thing to say but...

For the price of a decent turbo you may want to consider a 911SC. A decent order turbo will run you 9K-11K which is what a decent 911SC is going for these days. The cars are well matched for power and speed. I have owned both and I will say the 911SC is a great car. The 944 will give you a bit more comfort for long drives but the 911 is such a classic. A decent 74-77 Carrera can also be had for under 9K these days. People are afraid of the 2.7L engine but after a lot of reading its not as bad as it seams. They cars are equally as rewarding to work on and complex in there own ways. I know the prices I listed are a bit more than you said you are willing to spend but its some thing to consider, and dont forget 911 prices are on the rise.


Any way I totally agree that if you want to go turbo save your self the time and get a turbo to start out.

I also see you are going to use it as a DD. I have used a 944 as my DD since high school (924S in high school and 944 now) and it has never let me down. That being said nor has my 911 which sees as much use in all kinds of weather. So if you have any hesitation about using theses cars every day forget it, they are great,

Another thing to consider if you want to keep it really cheap is a 914. Not as fast but they can be had for cheap if they are in need of restoration. Could be a fun project they look like interesting cars.

Just some food for thought...


Regards
Dave

Yes I know the brutal reality is that my best bet is to buy a 951 and be done with,swapping parts and so on.Not to take away from the 944 or porsche and the awesome they produce.I believe that wether I will be buying a 944 or 951 it will end up being modified engine wise,transmission,rear end and so on.Hence why I am considering picking up something cheaper seeing as it will be modified either way.This is why I was considering this option or purchasing a spare 944NA motor and making the necessary changes and so on.

I believe that with deck cooling the NA block,copper head spacer to drop the comp ratio and coating the pistons with some of swain tech coatings,some beefy rods,add in some necessary valve train bits,and some calico coated bearings for rods and journals could be a worthy motor that should support some good numbers.Now thats just engine work on top of that a custom equal length exhaust manifold flanged for a decent size turbo the right clutch and gearbox and It could show promise regarding what these engines can do.

Thats just the engine portion of it of course brakes,rotors,calipers,master cylinder and so on will need to be upgraded as well.More than likely a rear end also apart from suspension component also.Maybe Its just me but if everything will be changed or upgraded maybe a regualr 944 isnt a bad option.Anyone know what is the main difference between the DME's??I know the DME from the 951 has a KLR thats build into it and the 944NA does not.Apart from that is there any other differences??


Yes the 911 has that classic shape and is a very nice car.I do agree.I on the other hand would like to build a 944 or 951 simply because I like the shape and lines of the 944 and the fact that these cars are and were under rated as performers in general.However who knows there might be a 911 in the future for me.

Also just wondering. does the 944 and the 951 have the same fenders and quarter panels or are the 951 wider??

A friend of mine has an 86 951 that runs and can be a daily driver for $4,500. It needs the standard service on it, belts and so on. It would be a great project for someone with the skills.

NAs and Turbos are the same width. The only difference is in the front fenders.... a slightly different cutout on the front to accommodate the different bumper.