Your driving impressions of an 944 S2 vs BRZ/FR-S

[Purie]

Hey all

New to the forum thanks to a friend who motivated me to take a look at a 944 before pulling the trigger on a Scion FR-S.

On paper their both pretty similar, FR layout, around 200hp, sub 3000lb, and around a 100" wheel base. So how so they feel when behind the wheel?

I've driven several of the Scion's and I absolutely love the seating position, pedal placement, shifter, and how sublime everything feels together when you heal-toe.

As for the 944, I unfortunately haven't been able to find one locally to drive. So I've come here in hopes that some of you guys have had a chance behind the wheel of both our just want to give some feedback on either a 944 or an 951.

Thanks

Josh

[mhariush]

You're looking at either a 25+ year old car or a 2.5-10 times the price new car? I haven't ridden a Scion FR-S but I am sure it will be a very different car than the 944 in terms of comfort and ride. Things have changed. And just the squeaks in most all 944's because of the age will be quite a difference.

If you're in the market for a 20K car or so, why look at a 944? You can find Cayman's for that price. Or even a 911, 996 or older. Boxsters... Lots of choices...

But regarding the 944, I love to be in it. When I go from a newer car, like my gf's '10 RAV4, not much of a comparison, but hey, I'm always delighted at how nice the 944 rides despite it's age.

But they do require a lot of maintaining and upkeep. I've put in close to 10K on mine since I got it.

rebuilt head, new chain and tensioner (PO had timing belt failure), new koni sport shocks front and back yet to be installed, new vacuum lines, new tires, new belts and front seals etc, new clutch not installed yet, new ac compressor, oil cooler seal etc etc. And still got lots of things on the list...

But I do love the car. What are you looking for in a car. And old, hopefully-soon-a-classic-that-costs-a-lot-to-maintain or a newer "flashier" car?

[GreenWater]

Sorry haven't driven the FR-S but would love to own one TOO. The 944 is an awesome car, and some of it's awesomeness is that it's a 25 year old car and it still looks good and is being compared to a new car. That should say a lot right there. A nice 944 stands out, where a FR-S is just another new car that I see often. A 944 feels great to drive, a very grounded, more mechanical feel. A nice 944 won't have any squeaks or odd noises, but most do. Things like that will need to be fixed, by you. They are expensive to maintain, but not bad if you do the work yourself. But be prepared for possibly a lot of work. My 85.5 I bought for $3200 and I have probably spent around $5000 keeping in going over the years,(9 or so years) and it looks horrible, but drives great! The 944 is NOT a powerful car but still very fun. You will need to learn a lot about the car and what to fix and when to fix it, and how to fix it, but you are in the right place. Also, don't forget about smog. Normally the cars pass easily though. Obviously we are all bias here. haha but it is a fun car, and unique. If I were you, a person here is selling his 87 944S, and it's a great deal. Very well maintained car from a great guy. His is only selling it for $4000, even thought I told him to sell it for more!

Just depends if you want a car that will need some work,(they ALL do) but is more unique, or less work and 4 times as much.

[GreenWater]

Link to his car that's for sale. 87 944S

[Gawernator]

You could buy two super nice 951's lol

[Purie]

Originally Posted by mhariush

You're looking at either a 25+ year old car or a 2.5-10 times the price new car? I haven't ridden a Scion FR-S but I am sure it will be a very different car than the 944 in terms of comfort and ride. Things have changed. And just the squeaks in most all 944's because of the age will be quite a difference.

If you're in the market for a 20K car or so, why look at a 944? You can find Cayman's for that price. Or even a 911, 996 or older. Boxsters... Lots of choices...

But regarding the 944, I love to be in it. When I go from a newer car, like my gf's '10 RAV4, not much of a comparison, but hey, I'm always delighted at how nice the 944 rides despite it's age.

But they do require a lot of maintaining and upkeep. I've put in close to 10K on mine since I got it.

rebuilt head, new chain and tensioner (PO had timing belt failure), new koni sport shocks front and back yet to be installed, new vacuum lines, new tires, new belts and front seals etc, new clutch not installed yet, new ac compressor, oil cooler seal etc etc. And still got lots of things on the list...

But I do love the car. What are you looking for in a car. And old, hopefully-soon-a-classic-that-costs-a-lot-to-maintain or a newer "flashier" car?

Unfortunately the Cayman is just a bit out of my budget since I'll be leasing. I have driven plenty 911's from SC's, 2 Carrera's (1 g50 and the other 915), 964, and 996. The older ones were just to harsh and the 915 transmission was a pain. I really liked the 964, however the cost of ownership scared me away. And just wasn't feeling the 996.

I am one of those weirdos that looks forward to wrenching on a car and the low price of the 944 is really appealing. My friend called is 944 the budget Cayman (he owns both). I've also heard the same for the FR-S haha.

Thanks

[Purie]

Originally Posted by GreenWater

Sorry haven't driven the FR-S but would love to own one TOO. The 944 is an awesome car, and some of it's awesomeness is that it's a 25 year old car and it still looks good and is being compared to a new car. That should say a lot right there. A nice 944 stands out, where a FR-S is just another new car that I see often. A 944 feels great to drive, a very grounded, more mechanical feel. A nice 944 won't have any squeaks or odd noises, but most do. Things like that will need to be fixed, by you. They are expensive to maintain, but not bad if you do the work yourself. But be prepared for possibly a lot of work. My 85.5 I bought for $3200 and I have probably spent around $5000 keeping in going over the years,(9 or so years) and it looks horrible, but drives great! The 944 is NOT a powerful car but still very fun. You will need to learn a lot about the car and what to fix and when to fix it, and how to fix it, but you are in the right place. Also, don't forget about smog. Normally the cars pass easily though. Obviously we are all bias here. haha but it is a fun car, and unique. If I were you, a person here is selling his 87 944S, and it's a great deal. Very well maintained car from a great guy. His is only selling it for $4000, even thought I told him to sell it for more!

Just depends if you want a car that will need some work,(they ALL do) but is more unique, or less work and 4 times as much.

I hear ya all the way. The uniqueness and having that older Porsche build quality is nice. The styling inside and out I'm sure will hold up better then the Scion/Subaru. It's that drivers engagement that I seek though. That mechanical feel you mentioned sounds nice.

4 out of 5 of my last cars were turbos, when driving them you feel like the car is doing the work and your along for the ride. Heal-toe is hit or miss, especially with all these new electronic throttles. Driving all these NA cars made me realize what they mean about throttle response, which brings me to my dilemma.

Keeping all these cars in mind and maybe thrown in a E30 M3 and not basing it on out right performance numbers, can a 944 S2 hold it's own against this company as a drivers car?

Cheers

[VirginiaF1]

Hi Purie and welcome to the forum ...
Having been lucky enough to've driven all the cars you mentioned, and considering your stated enthusiasm in doing your own wrench work, I'd suggest the BMW e30 m3... As far as financially.
It's depreciation slope is clearly less steep than the new cars; and will be a future rare classic.

Driving-wise, the new cars (and to some extent the Hyundai GenCoupe) clearly mimic the 944's specs, low CofG and drivetrain... That said, there is a clear difference in terms of feel.
I would describe it as "Butter vs. Beer".
New cars are like butter - smooth, pretty sweet but rather lacking in character due to 25 years of automobile evolution having expunged that rare quality of road feel.
Old Bimmers and Porsches though still yield the most verbose steering feedback and chassis communucation.
Just a different time back then when men were men... Showing my age and perhaps gender bias? Uh, yeahhhh.

Nothing against newer cars if that's what one seeks.
For me though, I like to hear the squeaks, groaning and wheezing of a thoroughbred from the Reagan administration... A price I'll gladly pay to know EXACTLY what the asphalt is doing under me and how my car is reacting to it..
Simply Unmatched.
Peace
Mikey

[Gawernator]

"There's no such thing as a budget Porsche, just a budget for a Porsche"

[rhett]

Originally Posted by Gawernator

"There's no such thing as a budget Porsche, just a budget for a Porsche"

Never a truer word spoken there Gaw..

Hi Josh..I think Mikey (VirginiaF1) has summed it all up pretty well. Beer vs Butter. Over here the FR-S is marketed by Toyota as the 86. A very nice modern GT car, looks good and drives well, but doesn't have that certain 'something' that the old 944 has in spades. As already stated - so much feel has been engineered out. You will have to get yourself behind the wheel of an S2 (or Turbo) to experience what the guys are talking about...then make up your mind.

I cannot vouch for the BMW as I have no experience of this marque.

You know where to come if you do acquire a 944!

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by Purie

just want to give some feedback on either a 944 or an 951.

Haven't driven the FR-S, but I've had a couple of 944 8V (8-valve, non-S, non-S2) cars and currently have a 951.

For just tooling around, I think my favorite was the '89 944 NA with the 2.7 because it had more low-end torque. I would imagine that the S2 would be even better in this regard.

That said, I'm not giving up my 951 any time soon. Yes, it's a nearly 30-year-old turbocharged car so the boost doesn't come on until about 3,000 RPM and it's got pretty massive lag (though it was very good in its day), but once you're in the powerband it's just an amazing car. Definitely not a drag racing car (a good launch requires a lot of clutch slip and it's a huge job to replace the clutch on these cars), but once you're up and going it's absolutely incredible.

It does make it more difficult to live with in everyday driving though, but it's worth it to me. I can definitely understand the arguments in favor of an S2 or 968 instead though as the whole "off-boost sloth, on-boost cheetah" thing isn't for everyone. It's also not fun when you're on a track and still learning the car and all the boost comes in one big lump in the middle of a second-gear corner. Easy to find yourself suddenly facing the opposite direction.

Ultimately, between a 944 (any 944/951/968) and an FR-S/BR-Z I think it should come down to how much you like to tinker and work on older things.

The FR-S/BR-Z will be a car you can just get into and drive. It won't have quirks like the 944's 3-year/30,000 mile timing belt interval or potentially delaminating hatch. It'll be the sort of car that puts a smile on your face every time you drive it and demands little in return.

The 944 will be a bit more bipolar. The highs will be higher, but the lows will be lower too. I call my 951 my "mistress." She requires attention and she's higher maintenance than any new car. There are more moments of frustration with the 951, but the reward is always there too. If you can take the greater variation and enjoy fixing things and tinkering, the 944 may be the right choice, but don't think it'll be even close to as maintenance-free as the FR-S/BR-Z will be.

[mytrplseven]

The basic 944 won't be as powerful as some of the newer, more modern cars, and I don't know what the Scion you're referring to has, but...the really cool aspects of the basic car is: It's a sexier, racier looking body; It's initial cost is cheaper; 30 mpg; uniqueness; perfectly balanced and for us that love to wrench, it fits the bill perfectly. I'm on my third (can't get them out of my system) and the local guys in their rice rockets still pull up along side and do the vroom vroom (or is it buzz buzz) thing, trying to get a rize out of ya. I'm keeping this one because it's a dark green metallic (factory color) and am continuing to restore to "new" condition. that makes it even more unique. Good luck in your deliberations. Buy a Scion and look like everybody else or buy a 944 and enjoy the drive.

[GreenWater]

The 944 will be a bit more bipolar. The highs will be higher, but the lows will be lower too.

That is an understatement! Many days I have wanted to set my car on fire and watch her burn the the ground. I've thought about doing bad things to here to collect the insurance money. But when everything is going good, I absolutely love her. (which is right now!)

It hasn't been mentioned yet, just assumed, that you are looking for a daily driver. Most of us here use our cars as daily drivers, not just on the weekends. Make sure you have a back up plan when the 944 is broke down.

[Gawernator]

Haha, insurance money... Hmm...

[GreenWater]

Seriously!

[Gawernator]

Don't tempt me

[mhariush]

Purie, go try this car, it's what you're asking about.

1991 porsche 944 S2 in excellente condition

[Gawernator]

Good price too

[racer]

As a DD, a NEW car will trump a 20+ year old car. New car has a warranty. New car won't break down on you right away. New car has modern electrics, HVAC, etc etc.

However, depending on the roads you have to drive, you may not want to put up with the lackluster Tourque of the SCION/BRZ motor. Yes, 200HP.. but TQ is around 150. IIRC, S2 HP and TQ are around 200 each. That makes a huge difference in slow street use.

Actually, just googled it...
SCION tq = 151 at 6,600rpm. 944S2 = 207 @ 4100rpm
Scion HP = 200 @ 7,000. 944S2 = 208 @ 5800rpm

944 is also much classier looking, but will require more maintenance overall.

Then again, S2 is $5-10K, SCion is $25-30K. How deep are your pockets? Also, if you want (need) an automatic, only the Scion can help you.

Oh.. and enjoy the "tuner crowd" websites when you have a Scion question


All that said, a buddy of mine is selling his 1986 944 (non turbo) because his new FRS is more fun.

[Purie]

Great info guys ,thanks for the input. I didn't realize the 944 S2 made that much torque.

Now how about this scenario, would you drive your car for 300 miles in 112° heat several times a year? I have family in the desert and do this trip often. The AC isn't as bad as the 911's is it?