Porsche Copyright

[SoCal Driver]

The subject of Porsche factory repair manuals has come up time and again.

We can not blame the owners of this BBS for wanting to protect their service from legal action.

I've just spent about 45 minutes on the phone tracking down where I can buy brand new in the box service manuals. Guess what, the 924, 944, 951, 968 factory repair manuals are no longer being published -- at least here in the US. The only way you can find any is through checking with as many dealers as you can. So I've found two 924 manual sets and one each 944 and turbo supplement. Not all at the same dealers. Used manual sets come up on eBay all the time as well as the CDRs containing PDFs of the manuals.

IMHO this reluctance by Porsche to provide repair and maintenance documentation is tantamount to abandonment of copyright. I'm also of the opinion that OEM repair manuals should not be protected by the same level of copyright as a creative work.

The PET software is cumbersome to use as it's designed for a dedicated workstation hooked up to the net using VPN to facilitate dealer ordering and inventory tracking. The basic use of this electronic catalog, no different than those offered for free by many major manufacturers, benefits only Porsche as 99% of the parts listed can only be purchased directly or indirectly from Porsche USA.

I would like to see this electronic catalog redesigned with the 924's, 944's, 951's and 968's broken out and made simple to use by the involved car owner and given away to any that wants one. Again this can only benefit Porsche USA.

The repair manuals could benefit from proper PDF indexing. I would put down money for this. Perhaps selling a CD along with the paper manuals.

[Z-man]

SoCal:
The factory manuals are still available for purchase. Here.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/944M/por_944M_documt_main.htm
I have also seen them available at Pelican Part's competitor's catalogs. I am not sure who is saying they are out of print.
The fact that these manuals are still available means you can't bring "abandonment of copyright" into the argument.

However, I feel that it would be great if Porsche AG would convert their manuals into CD / PDF format, as you suggest. Get in touch with Porsche AG directly, and maybe they will do so. (Probably unlikely, but you never know!)

Bottom line: it is still illegal to copy and then sell or distribute the factory manuals. Lately, Porsche AG has been cracking down on copyright infringement, including the use of the numbers "944." Therefore, it is better for Pelican and this web forum to refrain from dealing with such material. It is as simple as that.

I too, wish Porsche would make publically available the PET CD-ROM, and produce a soft-copy of the factory manuals: you have no argument from me about that. But just because they don't have that available to us, does not grant us the right to produce illegal copies of such material.

Please respect this board and website by not discussing such topics here.

Thanks,
-Zoltan.

[SoCal Driver]

You need to check with El Segundo. They don't have any 924, 944 manuals and don't know where to get them.

Quote; "If you see these anywhere buy them!"

Having a residual number of manuals available scattered around dealers is not the same as being published.

I do think this is a topic of importance to the used Porsche owner's community and find your reluctance to allow discussion sans any links to the anarchistic CDRs somewhat puzzling. Are the threats from Porsche that intimidating?

[ae1969]

Topic should be discussed.

I was lucky enough to buy a full set years ago.

To be honest this item is no longer being produced. If the company can't or won't produce them. Then I agree with socal they have abandoned them.

To me it is no different than aftermarket knockoff being sold by aftermarket manufacturers , from body panels to engine parts. (old camaro's, 356's etc)

[AFJuvat]

Can actually speak with a degree of authority on this one.....

Manuals - yep, they are going out of print - ALL of them are. Porsche AG and its affiliate, PCNA are discontinuing the printed workshop manuals (thanks for the heads up Britwrench, confirmed it through Atlanta) They do plan on re-releasing them in PDF format - no word as yet if this includes the discontinued models (356, 914, 924, 944, 968) One would assume that they would be available from the dealer once they start coming out ("within the next 2 years")

PET - A wonderful program. Unfortunately, Porsche will only sell it to its dealers. Any independant repair facility (which is where 90% of the Porsches wind up after the warranty runs out, and most independants buy 75%+ of their parts from Porsche directly or through a partnership with a dealer) cannot buy/rent/licence the program. Oh by the way, they discontinued the microfische program too...

Even if we could - $1500 up front, $200/month in licensing and support. Many independants have little choice but to obtain "grey market" PET software just to avoid spending several hours on the phone chasing down parts.

OBD2/PST2 - Porsche follows the standard of OBD2 to the letter - everything mandated by law to meet OBD2 standards is accessable through any reasonably priced OBD2 machine.

Everything else is Porsche proprietary - need Special tool Porsche System Tester 2 - in the neighborhood of $10000 (seen it as low as $8500). Plus an additional $500 per year in licensing and software.

Sorry for the rant - I love the cars, but sometimes the company itself can really get under my skin - I must confess it was a lot easier when the family ran the show.

As owners of legacy Porsches, we are stuck between a company that is supporting the vehicles less and less -as moneyguy1 said in another post, good luck finding an experienced 924/944/968/928 mechanic at a dealer, you can forget about 356 or 914; and the desire to keep a fine automobile that we enjoy running. Overall, the level of "corporate knowledge" with the older cars is slowly fading away.

My best advice - if you have the manuals - make your one archival backup as permitted by law and then let your conscience be your guide.

AFJuvat

[Z-man]

I wasn't clear in my statement about what not to discuss here, so:
Feel free to discuss the manuals (I still see them as being available, btw) and how you feel about copyright laws...etc.

But please do not include any discussion on how to make or obtain an illegal copy of Porsche copyrighted material. I am sure that you do not want to jeopardize this board by posting things were that will result in Porsche AG going after Pelicanparts.

If you want to take a chance on the "abandonment of copyright" clause, or "the PET CD doesn't really have a copyright," or whatever, do so at your own risk, and do not bring PelicanParts or this webboard into your dealings with this.

Sorry about the confusion, and sorry if I sound like a stick in the mud,
-Z-man.

PS: SoCal: who's El Segundo?

[Sternn]

They are real jerks when it comes to copyrights. On our website, we were contacted by Porsche and sent cease and desist letters for displaying their logo on a few pages. I mean, we sell Porsche parts, but unless we pay $20,000 a year we can't display their logo. The also asked us not to display pictures of their CARS saying they too were protected under copyright, but our lawyers got that one shot down. Even after that, they claimed the model names were also copyright and we couldn't put things like 944 Cam, 924 Hood, etc. because displaying the model was a violation of copyright. Once again after a few weeks of talks with our attorney we won that one. Either way, it was a big ordeal over nothing, and cost us a few grand. You would think they would want people to have sites up about their product.

-S

[AFJuvat]

Nope, no offense meant or taken on my part.

Wouldn't want Porsche to go after Pelican any more than anyone else would.

Not familiar with copyright laws, but I know for a fact PET is indeed copyrighted by LexCom of Germany and its distributor here in the United States ADP. According to the Porsche Account Manager at ADP, she gets hundreds of calls every month from independants wanting to buy the software - Porsche always says No.

In Porsche's defense, they are thinking about/working on a PET on the web that thy will run as a subscription service and that in theory independents can pay for access and piggyback off of the dealers license.

AFJuvat

[SoCal Driver]

Pelican Parts
Mailing Address:
111 Eucalyptus Drive
El Segundo, CA 90245

When I was making my 45 minutes of phone calls I confirmed wth them that this is where the other end of the phone line was.

[Wayne 962]

The issue of manuals has come up many times. As for abandonment of copyright, I don't think there is such a thing. If I suddenly decided to stop publishing my book, 101 Projects, then that would not give anyone the right to suddenly start producing it.

A new Federal mandate that I heard about requires all manufactuers to release their workshop manuals on CD-ROM. I think that is what Porsche is heading towards, but I don't have any definitive information...

-Wayne

[Sternn]

There is an expiration on copyright. After a specified number of years (depending on the work and the life of the author), it becomes public domain. However the RIAA is in the Supreme Court now fighting to change that. I forgot the case number but I'll find it - all you ubergeeks out there know what I'm talking about, help me out.

-S

[Sternn]

Ahhh...found it!

Eldrich Vs. Ashcroft

http://eldred.cc/


Opening arguments were heard 10/9. This case is fighting the Sono Bono Copyrigth Extension Act, which adds another 20 years to all copyrights. There is also links on that site to other places with more info on copyrights and public domain.

-S

[SoCal Driver]

Wayne,

There is a difference between a repair technical manual put out by an OEM and a creative work such as your book. This is where I diverge on my somewhat anarchist stance on OEM factory manuals. I would never think of scanning your book and PDFing it.

Some one has scanned the Haynes 944 book. Think I saw an old thread about it on the "other" P board.


Porsche factory manual CD-ROM from Porsche: This will be interesting.

Wonder if it will be just as obtuse as the PET.

[Britwrench]

Porsche said they would introduce CD technology to their franchised dealers in the 1980s...it didn't happen.
If you compare Mercedes Benz information systems to Porsche then Porsche is way, way behind. It would only to Porsche's best interest to allow independent shops technical information as I am sure there would be a rise in genuine Porsche parts being sold.
However, as with the workshop manual situation...it ain't gonna happen...

BTW, had interesting chat with Mercedes specialist today, apparently MB are to allow independents access to the WIS system..for a price, of course.

The current PET situation is a joke; Porsche should sell the cds and updates and life would be easier for everyone; like how many people have bootleg copies? And just what do they use these copies for? Why, to buy PORSCHE PARTS that's what!!
Jeezzzz.....


End of rant...for the moment

[SoCal Driver]

Originally posted by Britwrench

BTW, had interesting chat with Mercedes specialist today, apparently MB are to allow independents access to the WIS system..for a price, of course.

Like the 500% mark up on the parts isn't enough??

[Moneyguy1]

Possible future notification from the company:

"Warning. your automobile is approaching twenty years of age. At this point we, at Porsce disavow any knowledge of said model.

You will be in violation of our infringement laws unless, before the twentieth anniversary of your vehicles manufacture, you remove all nameplates and external references with our copyrighted and protected name, logo, and model designation. These items must be returned to the factory at your expense for classification and to assure you have conformed with this edict.

Failure to do so will force us to activate the self destruct circuit wired into your vehicle which will cause the timing belt to shred, the thermostat to weld itself to the associated snap ring in the shut position, the clutch to melt and the odometer gears to strip. Finally, the automatic wedgie device in the driver's seat will be activated at speeds in excess of 90 kph.

You have been warned.

Sig Heil!!!

[AFJuvat]

hehehehehehhee

You may be more right than you think...
one small nit pick - it is..

SIEG heil (hail victory)

(oh dear, I think I have consumed entirely too much bourbon this evening)

Ja ist es wahr, ich tatsächlich auch viel whiskey heute abend
habe verbraucht. Demzufolge werde ich nicht gezwungen, zu tha
Sprache meines vaterland zurückzukehren. Jetzt soll ich
wahrscheinlich ins Bett gehen. Aber da ich einen ziemlich lustigen Posten um einen dummkopfen aufgestellt habe, werde ich durch sitzen und werde fortsetzen, weiter zu trinken.

AFJuvat

[AFJuvat]

hey moneyguy,

never forget, since it is a german car, that warning would have to be in at least 2 languages:

Warnen nähert. Ihr Automobil zwanzig Jahre von Alter. Jetzt leugnen wir, an Porsche irgendeine Kenntnis gesagten Modells ab.

Sie werden in Übertretung Gesetze unserer Verletzung sein es sei denn, bevor der zwanzigste Jahrestag Ihrer Fahrzeuge herstellt, nehmen Sie alle Namensschilder und äußerliche Verweisungen mit unserem urheberrechtlich geschützten und geschützten, Firmenzeichen, und Modell Bezeichnung nennen heraus. Diese Punkte müssen auf die Fabrik an Ihrer Ausgabe für Klassifizierung und zurückgegangen werden zu sichern, daß Sie sich mit dieser Verordnung angepaßt haben.

Ausfall, so wird zwingen uns zu machen, den Selbst destruct Kreislauf zu aktivieren, der in Ihr Fahrzeug verdrahtet wird, das das Zeitmessung Band verursachen wird, zu zerreißen, schließt der Thermostat, sich zum verbundenen Knacken Ring im zu schweißen, Position, die Kupplung zu schmelzen und der odometer Gänge abzuziehen. Schließlich wird die automatische wedgie Vorrichtung im Sitz des Fahrers an Geschwindigkeiten mehr als 90 kph aktiviert werden.

[overkill]

Thats cool

[Moneyguy1]

Danke.

Wahrend ich in einer hast war, schrieb ich sie nur auf englisch. Zukunftig konnte ich sie in beide schreiben, ich anneme. Sie wurde wenig langer nehmen und nur einige von uns wurden es schatzen.

oder....

Grazie. Mentre ero in uno fretta, la ho scritta soltanto in inglese......

oder

Como sobre o portugues tambem?

My spelling may be a bit off...it's been awile and where do I find umlauts?