Engine dyno

[Danglerb]

I forget who asked about Engine vs chassis dyno's. Several local shops here in SoCal have engine dyno's but its a completely different side of HP than we typically see as Porsche and/or bolt on type HP seekers.

Joe Sherman is in Santa Ana, Cal. and he builds racing engines and is a top contender in the Hot Rod magazine engine masters challenge. With a in house engine dyno you can break in a new motor, test heads and then quickly pull them and try new springs or new heads etc. In short its a tool for an experimental engine builder, or a final test and/or break in fixture in a engine building operation.

Chassis dyno's are for TUNING not testing.

[rhjames]

"TUNING not testing"

The obvious difference between the two is you have the rest of the car to deal with (trannies, fuel systems, rear ends, tires/wheels, etc.) on a chassis dyno, and only the engine to worry with on the engine dyno. (Why am I telling you this? You should have read a book and educated yourself before venturing into this.....)



I guess that's why you don't have one??

Where do you come up with this stuff?

I know of plenty of shops that tune AND test with a chassis dyno.....

While I realize after your many posts rambling on about stuff that you either don't have a clue about, or are maybe trying to learn about, but don't you think for just once you could make a statement that has merit as opposed to offering your opinion that has no basis of fact?


Welcome to the world of Danglerb.....again.



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[Danglerb]

"Why am I telling you this?" This would be a good question to ask yourself and then pause a few seconds PRIOR to hitting submit.

Tuning.
A/F ratio adjusted last run and made 5 more HP.

Testing.
Last Dyno day my car made 307 rwhp and 318 rwtq.

Reality.
Last Dyno day I paid $75 for a printed graph based on an uncalibrated estimate of torque.

I've got a Gtech, with no plans on ever visiting a DynoJet unless its just for fun, but my guess is that I will wave the graph around just like any other fool.

[rhjames]

Geeeez ......as I said----why do you tell us this.


you go on about this stuff and that's fine if you'll get to a point in your ramblings. maybe you will get to an "informed" point?


you totally missed my point about the difference between engine dynos and chassis dynos, but that's your history. you can tune with either, as well as test with either. you said otherwise.

(I can see the cost of testing my 600 Cummins on an engine dyno and then tuning on the chassis dyno.....Let's see, $3000 to pull out of my truck, $250 per hour dyno time, another $3K to re-instll it, and then another $250 per hour to tune it.....)

following your example I would have wasted over six thousand bucks and several days downtime just to "test", when the testing is easily accomplished while on the chassis dyno.


more uniformed writings without research. you demonstrate that you spend more of your time involved in shop talk with the locals, instead of actually doing your own research reading what others have published for years and years.

you spent three months writing about the smog cops, now you're offering your opinions on dynos without statistics, data, and common sense.


I have had these same types of discussions with my 20 something son-in-law.......

example:

He r&r'd the head and cams on my daughter's Integra. couldn't understand why it wouldn't run when he put it back together.

"Did you align the cams/crank/timing belt marks per manufacturer's spec's?" His reply: Well, no.

(he went back to it, aligned the timing marks and it runs fine....)

Again----read first, then operate.

as for the submit button.....well, try your own advice.


repeat previous post......


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[Danglerb]

The "point" of this thread was to answer someone who asked about engine dyno's, and why most places only have chassis dynos. From that short answer you picked out my comment on chassis dyno's being for tuning and not for testing.

"Testing" wasn't the right word apparently to get the point across. Chassis dyno's as far as I have seen have no calibration to any recognized HP measuring standard. They are fine for looking at changes in tuning, getting the A/F just right, the timing, but the absolute HP and torque are pointless to compare with other dyno's on other days except in the most general terms. Maybe I should have said tuning and not boasting.

[rhjames]

welcome to the world of Danglerb.......

repeat above post.

OR---

maybe you could tell us why most places have chassis as opposed to stand alone?

OR---

why should we take uncalibrated numbers as absolute?

OR---

and you wonder why I pick one sentence out for objection? because it has no bearing on the issue.....

I gave specific examples of the issue you raised, and you totally ignored them.

I have given suggestions to your (re)search for the holy grail, and you've ignored them too.

this discussion is no different that others you have started, as the outcome will be that you make comments about which you have no data to back up, then get sidetracked to something totally unrelated to the subject at hand, and then get smashed for starting another lame thread.


your hybrid quest is no different, as well as your comment about exhaust manifolds and now dyno's.

you continually do not research, and then you do not act on the advice and experience of those who have done all of this long before you turned on your computer.

and you give me advice about thinking before pressing the submit button........give us a break.


No wonder everyone thinks your the same Danglerb from Rennlist.

whether you are or not is probably irrelevant, but if I was in your shoes I'd damn sure change my ID and quit acting like the Rennlist character you say you are not......


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[rhjames]

in other words---I give up.

you can have this forum, Rennlist, and every other forum you've trolled around on.

I'm done.

[Danglerb]

Originally posted by rhjames
welcome to the world of Danglerb.......

repeat above post.

OR---

maybe you could tell us why most places have chassis as opposed to stand alone?

OR---

why should we take uncalibrated numbers as absolute?

OR---

and you wonder why I pick one sentence out for objection? because it has no bearing on the issue.....

I gave specific examples of the issue you raised, and you totally ignored them.

I have given suggestions to your (re)search for the holy grail, and you've ignored them too.

this discussion is no different that others you have started, as the outcome will be that you make comments about which you have no data to back up, then get sidetracked to something totally unrelated to the subject at hand, and then get smashed for starting another lame thread.


your hybrid quest is no different, as well as your comment about exhaust manifolds and now dyno's.

you continually do not research, and then you do not act on the advice and experience of those who have done all of this long before you turned on your computer.

and you give me advice about thinking before pressing the submit button........give us a break.


No wonder everyone thinks your the same Danglerb from Rennlist.

whether you are or not is probably irrelevant, but if I was in your shoes I'd damn sure change my ID and quit acting like the Rennlist character you say you are not......


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I am DanglerB. I am not "DanglerB." Someone else registered on rennlist adding a period to my forum name and made two dozen silly posts. I made a touch over 2,000 posts, none were intended by me as a troll of any kind, if you want to discuss any of them specifically, fire away.

There is a difference between a troll, which is a malicious post intended as some kind of drive by assault on a forum, and a stupid idea or stupid question. In hindsight I should have searched more and posted less, but for those I did annoy 200 posts instead of 2,000 would not have made much difference in their attitudes.

******* now for your questions, which you already know the answers to, and will pay no attention to my actual response anyway, but its this or clean the garage.

Engine dyno's are for places that need "real" numbers, and that work with motors out of cars. Engine builders, racing operations, people that would want to know "why" a motor made 5 hp different than an expected amount.

Chassis dyno's are glorified "tune up masters" that sell printed graphs of estimated power for $150/hr. Its much more common because most tuning is related to the engine management thats part of the car, and its quick and easy. Plus all the people who don't realize how meaningless the HP numbers are and see a dyno graph as bragging rights for bench racing.

You shouldn't take uncalibrated numbers as absolute, but they are useful as comparisons to other runs on the same dyno.

"Testing" was a poor word choice on my part, what I meant was what that Dyno graphs are not HP certificates, they are estimates with moderate amounts of error.

I did not ignore them, I saw them as basic. If I buy a motor for my Mustang, chances are good I would pick a shop with an engine dyno and expect the motor to be broken in and tested before I put it in my car. If I make enough changes then I might take the whole car to a dyno tuner and have a chip burned to correct changes in injector sizes etc.

As far as telling me how to research, after six months there were really very few obvious sources that I had not looked into. Many people were very open, but many others are in the business of selling products based on their knowledge and not so accommodating. Some people on Rennlist seem convinced that 40 rwhp was gained going form a Euro S 4.7L motor to the same motor with a 5.0L 85/86 short block. A bit of information sifting is required, and if anything I do too much research.

RH I made the "submit" comment because I saw your response as a off topic comment about my choice of words and little else. If your comment is "repeat post above" why bother?

[rhjames]

Let's start over.....

Just let us know when you base you posts on actual facts and not your opinion.

if you're pissed about some dyno numbers you didn't like, that's your problem, not the machine's.

"tune up masters"-----good grief. Tell that one to the manufacturers of chassis dyno's..... They'll laugh you out of the place.

if you're pissed about being accused of being somebody else, change your name or go somewhere else.

as for your hybrid research---how many people have done this before? I know of at least half a dozen, some of them still actively running a hybrid in competition. you say you've consulted some, but you write as if they don't know ****.

I read all of these posts, including yours.

End of story.

[Danglerb]

Here is a fact, find the word calibration or accuracy on the DynoJet web site.

As soon as you start talking to the chassis dyno makers, or even the honest operators, most go directly to the "tuning" not performance measuring or testing, and that graphs are for comparisons to other runs not certificates of HP achieved. I'm sure they laugh all the way to the bank.

Maybe a little annoyed it caused so much confusion, but I am happy with the Danglerb name, and it makes anything I post easy to find.

More than 50 people at least have done a Euro hybrid motor, and I am sure they know endlessly more about what they did than I do. Almost all used 80-83 CIS, and stock Euro S cams and heads. The questions I have are related to using LH injection, higher performance cam profiles, and modified heads, in a non track smog inspected street car.

Greg Brown may have done more of the hybrids than anybody else, but 100% of them have been CIS, so his answer to me on LH is that we will find out how it works when we do it. I've had a lot of knowledgeable people tell me, they don't know what this or that will do, and I tend to believe that answer more than what I get from others.

If you know of somebody running a Euro S motor or a hybrid with a higher performance cam and passing smog inspections, let me know, I have some questions for them. In fact anybody running a hot cam in a 16V that even has some exhaust gas measurements would be great to hear from.

[rhjames]

yes, I will be running a much hotter cams this summer. My heads will be going to Nickens Bros for a full blown rework, along with other mods.

as for gas numbers----we don't have such worries in Texas, but for your purposes, I will run it by the smog shop both prior to and after the engine mods take place for comparisons.

we have plenty of gas, both in the ground and well, in other places.

as for your questions about running bigger cams and reworked heads and such-----talk to Carl Fausset (928 Motorsports).

Jim Bailey informs me the 16V is limited in cam size due to the cam towers themselves---makes perfect sense to me given the dimensions. (He suggests sending a set of US cams-not Euro due to their rarity-to Webcam for weld-up and regrinding, using a cam profile that Mark Anderson was running on his race car.)

Generally speaking, larger cam profiles will have detrimental affects on emissions outputs. (but you should have known this already...)

Last I know of, Venninger was running an aftermarket injection system, Shaw was running Kjet as well with some sort of map system, Kibort is right around the corner from you, ad nauseum........ 3 easy sources to fill your inquiring mind with data you might find useful. I have not talked with Stan (Shaw) or John V recently, so their current setups may be totally different than what I've described, and I may have described them incorrectly, so you should do your own research with them. You can catch them at 928 Owners Club .com

for head mods, the US head can be made to flow as much as the Euro by putting in Euro valves, opening the bowls, a three angle valve seat grind, and port matching the intakes and exhaust ports----(all of this was documented in an article I have laying around somewhere) which leads me to say just get a set of Euro's and do the same mods for bigger and better flow if you're going to have head work done.

with the L-jet, it seems to me you might ask via this site and others (Rennlist, PCA, 928 OC, etc.) and see IF someone has used L-jet on a Euro hybrid? just a thought.....

There. I've given you my two cents again.

I won't pick on you this time, but what you're trying to do is, again, old school hot rodding that's been done before.

And no, I won't even touch another discussion about which dyno is better than which dyno. The first round was nothing but wasted space.



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[Danglerb]

Jim Bailey is a patient teacher, takes me in the back and shows me things like cams and heads when I don't seem to get it. The cam slides through the cam bearings, and that limits the max lobe size, and beyond that a bit more is possible by reducing the lobe radius and doing something with I think the lifters to compensate. I'm thinking its .494 and .532, but thats from memory.

Thanks, any data on cam and smog, especially without cats will be helpful. So far what I am told is that what effects smog the most is the overlap and lobe separation angle, and plenty of cam specs don't even mention those parameters.

Carl has a set of Devek stage 1 cams up on Ebay right now, and I have talked with him about them. The listed specs make no sense to me, but I am working at knowing more about them, and completing my compression test before the bidding ends. If the compression looks good, I'm inclined to drop in the Euro motor without pulling the heads, just doing seals and hoses, plus TB and WP. If compression is not so good, perhaps a lot more changes in plans, or a return to the hybrid.

Euro heads are a nice known performer, so I am not inclined to change them much. They are expensive, and I think they have some kind of liner in the exhaust ports. Most of the head guys seem to think bigger valves will help, and several I talked to think the focus should be on port velocity and shape over strictly size, and with that much change starting with cheap US heads if possible sounds better.

Looks like I had the brain stuff totally wrong, and its best to keep whats on the motor, in this case the 84 Euro S has a weird version of LH with EZF. Until I saw an engine out of a car on a stand with the harnesses it just wasn't clear to me that all the sensors and injectors plug directly into the brain, with the basic electrical stuff I guess in the 14 pin. Hopefully things will continue to make more sense as both motors come out.

After the warm welcome on Rennlist I am not sure I want to mix it up in PCA. 3 months ago I was excited about all this stuff and anxious to move forward, and now I am 100% into taking my time and letting issues work out as slowly as they need to. I am also MUCH less focused on getting it perfect the first go round, instead of getting it pretty good and improving it as I can.