stroker costs

rhjames · rhjames's Garage

well, it seems that prices are going thru the roof, or somebody is really marking up their parts prices.

one of the other forum guys (I won't name him here) has announced his recently acquired stroker is going together soon. Nice enough, but when questioned as to price, he started off with some interesting numbers.....and then threw in a comparison to adding a supercharger.

$3K for a crank----(a Moldex I presume, as this brand was discussed)----my conversation with Moldex last month was a price of $2500/22 week build time--if somebody marked up a crank by that much, I'd be really pissed.....

$1k for a set of rods----(depends upon which rod you're using, but I priced a set of Scat rods at $350, for either 5.85 or 6 inch rods [both clearanced for stoker use].....Oliver or Carrillo billet/titanium rods were considerably more......a set of NASCAR test rods could be had for less than $100)

$2k for a set of pistons----(using 968 pistons, but claimed customs would be higher....I got a quote of $1500 for super light/coated/high wrist pin set)

"thousands $$$" for block work----(ie: boring/nikasil coating/etc.....US Chrome quoted me $1375 + shipping for doing a block/3 week turn around time)--another case of mark-up...?

had no idea of weight savings with light rods/pistons, and no idea of hp comparison numbers......Mmm......

claimed an SC could be had for $5K, plus $2K labor to put it in. Uh.....which kit is sold for $5K? Seems a little light to me, the last time I checked.....

while this may seem a minor issue, I think accurate figures/parts references would be better for everyone so that we could find reasonable deals on parts or builds that we are considering......makes me wonder if he really has a grip on what he's doing, or is he just opening the check book without a clue as to what he's spending his money on.....then again, if he's having someone build it for him......

his bottom line:

he recommended the SC route, but was continuing on with his stroker build even though he claimed the stroker would cost 2, 3, or 4 times as much as the SC.

I did a lot of inquiring about building a stroker over the last few months, but I haven't spent a dime on something I didn't research really well.....

interesting-

SeanR · 05-02-2008, 09:11 PM

Or a person could do it the cheap way, and pay for it later, then decide the cost was not worth it, and part the car.

Danglerb · 05-02-2008, 09:43 PM

My impression is that besides the parts, which I would be extremely leery of cutting corners on, there is a lot of labor and while your in there type stuff.

Moldex etc. are happy to sell the parts to anybody. I don't see a big line of people trying save money rolling their own, so it seems like the risk of not going with a proven builder isn't worth it to most people.

Personally I wrote off a stroker as an option some time ago. If a Euro or Euro hybrid can't provide the power I want, about the farthest I would go with a 928 motor is to bore a 5.0 out to 5.4 using 968 pistons and maybe port the 32v heads and use larger valves, then its SBC time. There is a Porschev on ebay right now, $1k opening bid, no reserve, sitting in LA (not calif).

rhjames · rhjames's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Taylor

Like anything on a 928, if you have to pay someone else to do the work, your wallet is going to bleed.

and as it turns out, that's where the guy is.....paying for a turn key stroker. couldn't really tell if he was bragging or complaining, but sounded as if he was having misgivings about going the stroker route......

Red Baron · 05-03-2008, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhjames

and as it turns out, that's where the guy is.....paying for a turn key stroker. couldn't really tell if he was bragging or complaining, but sounded as if he was having misgivings about going the stroker route......

I didn't read any of that into his post but who know's.

I would say you'd be at $15-20 for a turn key stroker. IMO a stroker would be the best choice for a track car. If you are trying to work on a budget that gets you the best "bang for your buck horse power" the turbo/SC is a better value.

I built a 928 motor from the ground up where all I started with was the heads and crank. With that it was even expensive because I cross drilled the crank and rebuilt the heads with new valves and guides. When you factor in buying a block (new not used) plus custom rods and pistons, brand new wiring harnesses etc... eclipsing 10k was quite easy just in parts.

Danglerb · 05-03-2008, 11:15 AM

OTOH what do you get with a stroker motor?

A stroker is turnkey performance. Pay once and you get loads of torque and HP, no smog check issues, no added hardware, nothing shows everything looks factory.

Nobody needs a 928 or a 400 hp motor, these are luxuries, adult toys. If a $30k motor just isn't going to happen, then other options become the only options. It boils down to what $30k means to you.

We all know the 928 is about smiles per gallon. Its not all that expensive to have a 928 put a smile on your face. The stroker motor IS expensive, not buy a new car expensive, but its for taking the smiles off people in other cars, which is priceless.

928sg · 05-03-2008, 07:14 PM

There are hidden costs in building a stroker 928.... the biggest one is balancing..... on my original stroker I was quoted $1200 for balancing alone.... on my second build I bought oliver Ti rods for $2600 new in the box... Oliver rods are prefered for stroking as you don't have to clearance the block... Recently the Carillo rods were found to be not stout enough for a 928 stroker and I would not even think about the scatt rods based on their HP & torque rating..... If you think about oliver rods run about $1800 for steel and then add $1200 for balancing you end up with 3K for rods combined with balancing... I spent $2600 for oliver Ti rods and $250 for balancing.... so it was about the same cost and I have a higher revving engine than if I had purchased the cheaper rods.. of course I learned this on my 2nd engine build.... so the convential wisdom was wrong.. buy the cheaper rods I was told.

I already had my own stroker crank, and built my second stroker engine for under 10K and that was with buying Ti rods.....

Stan.Shaw · 05-09-2008, 03:12 PM

Commonly overlooked is that a stroker includes a rebuilt motor, the cost of an SC or Turbo does not.

Stan.Shaw · 05-09-2008, 03:39 PM

I could add up everything I have bought for my stroker build, but mine is for track, so I am going with a throttle body setup, drysump, etc. So costs that wouldn't be needed for the street perhaps, off the top of my head:
$2200 scat crank
$1000 used 968 pistons and HPC coating
$1500 oliver rods
$ 500 boring & lapping 86 block
$3000 heads with 968 valves (could be higher)
$1500 custom cams
$2500 ITB with intake
$3000 drysump
$2000 motec (used but barely, right Sterling

)
$1500 bearings, rings, gaskets (estimate probably low)
Still need balancing, assembly

I also bought a GT transmission $3500 and will upgrade the clutch $2000 (I hope).

Bottom line, is the $10k stroker someone suggests can be bought ready to bolt in and run is a GREAT (very hard to believe) deal.

I plan to build a second one for my street GT too, but clearly I am a foolish person, as the race motor is 3 years in build so far...

Danglerb · 05-09-2008, 05:57 PM

The 968 pistons need coating before use, or personal choice on the HPC? Why not DLC?

Normy · 05-09-2008, 06:45 PM

I talked to Susan at Devek one day, and we went through the costs of me shipping my M28 to California and having it rebuilt. To do it right [Devek does it right when it comes to strokers] worked out to over $20,000!

Listen: I could buy an airplane for less than that! That is just about twice what my car cost to buy~

That's insane. Or at least it is a project for someone who makes a hell of a lot more than me!

Erik up in Wisconsin has a friend that is trying to build a cheap iron cylinder kit for the M28 engine. I suspect you'd still wind up spending the same amount of money to do it right, but that's the only other way to get a significant amount of cubic inches while still having acceptable reliability.

Blowers and nitrous are way cheaper. But there is yet to be a kit for a 928 that hasn't gone on without significant problems. The blower folks are all having trouble with knock or belts slipping.

Good luck-

N!

Stan.Shaw · 05-09-2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danglerb

The 968 pistons need coating before use, or personal choice on the HPC? Why not DLC?

Yes, the pistons were used and looked it.
Don't have a specific recollection, it was what I needed, cited past experience on 928 or similar motors, etc. Doesn't matter too much right now, as they are done but unproven, so I can't cite any personal experience.

I do have a second block bored and a second set of (8) 968 pistons, so the beginning of the street car build as wells. The project will certainly be measured in years though.

Danglerb · 05-09-2008, 09:09 PM

$20k to $30k is a lot of money, except where do you go to buy what a 928 stroker offers for less? You can get something, "kinda" like it in the Vette for only twice or so as much, but its only kinda in performance, nothing in style, nothing in the Porscheness (luxury, quality, German steel vs plastic etc.).

This is all about what you want, and what you can afford. If what you want is a 928 stroker, if thats what would really float your boat, nothing else is going to scratch the itch. Blowers, turbos, and nitrous can make a fast car, but its like scratching your foot when your elbow itches. If what you really want is just to go fast, then you have a lot more options.

I've also come to the opinion that in many cases trying to save money on the 928 is hopeless, or at best random, and that time spent in pursuit of a cheap stroker might be better spent in doing whatever it is that you ordinarily do to make money, and make some more of it.

Herr-Kuhn · 05-10-2008, 02:51 AM

You guys should lay out the $/HP area under the curve. Lay out the dyno charts graphically and measure the area under each power curve. I see Stan's point...but usually the reason you stroke it is to make more power not because it was worn out. Also I like the bolt ons because the time involved with a complete tear down is substantial...I've done it 3 times now.

In my mind the best option is the turbocharger becasue you get gobs of power mid-range and top end, right where you want it on a car like this. Consider if you bought a nice low mile 928S4 for say, $11,000 and then installed a twin turbo system at $11,500...add $1000 for a nice custom exhaust and you now have a low-mile 928 with about 600 HP for $23,500. A true performance bargain by any definition.

Stan.Shaw · 05-10-2008, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr-Kuhn

I see Stan's point...but usually the reason you stroke it is to make more power not because it was worn out. Also I like the bolt ons because the time involved with a complete tear down is substantial...I've done it 3 times now.

Hi John,

No disagreement. My point was that you end up with a freshly rebuilt motor, an added value to long term enjoyment and reliability.

I believe it was also mentioned that in emissions states where testing and visual checking is adhered to, the stroker is not obvious. I live in an state where emissions testing is required annually

If emissions weren't required annually where I am, I doubt I would consider a stroker for the street. Forced induction would definitely be my choice. Who knows, maybe I will move before I get to it anyways

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr-Kuhn

In my mind the best option is the turbocharger becasue you get gobs of power mid-range and top end, right where you want it on a car like this. Consider if you bought a nice low mile 928S4 for say, $11,000 and then installed a twin turbo system at $11,500...add $1000 for a nice custom exhaust and you now have a low-mile 928 with about 600 HP for $23,500. A true performance bargain by any definition.

Well you do have to consider that finding a low mileage S4 for $11k is an unusally good buy, unless it needs the standard $5k plus work. Most 928s, regardless of miles, that I have seen have thousands of dollars of deferred maintenance, required electrical repairs, interior issues or exterior issues. So, I think your initial buy-in is closer to $20k than $11k. Even with that said, if you are a 928 addict as I am, it really doesn't matter, my desire for something different is rare and fleeting.

Shane E · 05-10-2008, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Normy

But there is yet to be a kit for a 928 that hasn't gone on without significant problems. The blower folks are all having trouble with knock or belts slipping.

Good luck-

N!

That is an interesting statement Normy! From my own experience, it is also not true.

Danglerb · 05-10-2008, 08:06 AM

Roller racing, aka dyno dueling, isn't going to decide anything. Once a couple different cars are on the track the benefits of various tech will be apparent.

Herr-Kuhn · 05-10-2008, 08:51 AM

1/2 the reason I built the twin turbo was to see the look on the faces of the drivers of $75,000+ cars that don't hold a candle to it.

I paid $10K for my 928 and it had like 167K on the clock when I got it. I think the shipping cost me $800 on an open carrier. I had to add the LSD and of course, a better clutch. Neither of those was up to the task. I did walk into a really good deal with this car as it was maintained by Greg Brown in California. No joke...I added up the receipts to the tune of $30,000 spent by the previous owner...I got very lucky with my purchase. I'm sure it could have pulled down $13K-14K if he had held out, but when I told the guy doing the estate sale about what the car was being used to do, he wanted to go through with it stating the prior owner would have loved it. He had died recently of cancer and this guy was selling the cars out of his estate. The guy told me he received calls for 3-4 months after the sale...it had to be that it is a 5-spd and they are so rare.

On the emissions...I hear you there. It was ironic, the donor car for the TT project came from Anaheim and there was no belt on the air pump, in fact it was seized.

I have to say, I like KY...it is conservative and the government is not overpowering. This is a state where you can still have some leway...lots of people here even carry a weapon (I'm not one of them though I do own 5 or 6 firearms that I don't do much with anymore). I could never live in a place like Mass where there is so much govenrmental control...best part is you can slip over the border into NH and have the same deal as KY with fewer rednecks.

I've toyed with the idea of selling the twin turbo and building a new one for myself on a lower mile GTS chassis. Right now I think my TT could easily pull down $25K, even with the miles on it. With the way I built it I really beleive it adds value to the car. I think Dave's screw system also adds some value.

Stan.Shaw · 05-13-2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr-Kuhn

I have to say, I like KY...it is conservative and the government is not overpowering. This is a state where you can still have some leway...lots of people here even carry a weapon (I'm not one of them though I do own 5 or 6 firearms that I don't do much with anymore). I could never live in a place like Mass where there is so much govenrmental control...best part is you can slip over the border into NH and have the same deal as KY with fewer rednecks.

My intent is to move to NH and your reasoning is in alignment. I am a libertarian, so MA is not easily tolerable. At least I live 80 miles from Boston...

P.S. In MA you "need" a license to carry, and I have one