993 3.6 into a 91 964 need help

redturbo911 · 03-30-2011, 07:47 PM

OK guys so I just got a 1995 993 3.6 engine and will be fitting it into my 91 964 with stock g50 that has no engine. I know wiring needs to be changed a bit and exhaust as well as oil lines but can anyone help me out and guide me threw what exactly needs to be done and why please. Also pictures will help, I have engine,dme,and harnesses. I hear alot of 3.6 into earlier cars but have many of you guys done this upgrade? hows it working if so? will I need any special parts?

Mike Hall · 03-30-2011, 09:38 PM

Are you already to the point of installing the engine? Your moving right along on that project if so. My crazy self is being wishy washy on what kind of power plant I want to install even after buying a 964 engine. hahaha Now I am thinking GT3 engine.

redturbo911 · 03-31-2011, 05:51 AM

LOL mike your insane haha. No Im not at that point yet but just starting to get prepared so I would like to educate myself as much as possible. Keep us posted on your build. Those pics of the car you where going to go off of looked great.

Normandy 964 · Normandy 964's Garage

Hi,

I didn't do the conversion myself, but it was done so badly that I have had to redo most of the electrics....

The pinout on the 993 ECU is completely different from the 964. On my car I have a 993 engine to ECU harness which is probably the easiest solution.
You need a 993 ECU without drive-block....or you need to change to a 993 alarm system as well....probably not a good idea.
Just spend some time with both shematics and it isn't too difficult to connect together.

Mechanically the engine just drops straight in, as you say the only problems are the exhaust and oil pipes.
I currently have the standard 993 mufflers mounted about 1" lower so that they don't hit the rear lamps. You just need to cut 1" off the top of the muffler supports and modify the inlet and outlet pipes.
Before I had a pair of straight pipes...but couldn't drive for more than 20 minutes without getting a headache !

I'll post some photos of the oil pipe routing which was done. I'm not very happy with it and have a standard 964 oil pipe that I want to try out the next time I change the oil. I guess that the 964 pipe will hit the exhaust but should be easy to modify.

It's my daily driver, so I'm just glad not to have to do the valve clearances all the time like on a 964 ! Obviously it's a bit more powerful, but since it has a flatter torque curve it is easier to exploit and more relaxed to drive.

I'll try to post some photos and schematics, but not this week as I am struggling to rebuild the steering rack....all the bolts are rounded off and seized and I can't even get it out

livesportm · 04-04-2011, 09:59 PM

Normandy! Nice that you have one too. This is a crosspost of the oil line info:

Pictures are worth a thousand words so here we go. Excuse the dirt under the motor. There are a lot of conversions here which could be made a lot simpler. You could do it much simpler with a 30mm to 30mm line fittings that BAT Inc. sells instead of converting to AN then back like I did. If I did it again or change this car I would do what I did below with their hose ends for the oil return line. We did this a long time ago and were in a big hurry at the time.

Oil Return line:

This is the 90degree -16AN fitting for the line that goes from the bottom of the engine to the oil filter housing. Normally this is the 30mm to 30mm line that goes around the back of the motor. I think there is a male to male converter on the engine that I went from a male 30mm to male -16 AN. I think I had it with a different adapter but it was too long and hit the exhaust headers. With the 993 catalytic converter you have to go forward under the gearbox and around. I purchased 6 feet of -16 AN line and probably only used about 4.5 of it but you will have power steering so you may need closer to 5 feet. I got the 90, line and 45 degree all from Summit.

So it runs underneath the transmission and around to the oil filter housing. With bigger mufflers and power steering it will be a little trickier.

So going into the oil filter housing the line terminates with a -16 45 degree swivel fitting. Then It converts using a -16 AN male to female 30mm converter.

On the oil supply line:

I used the Smart Racing Products 993 oil inlet adapter pieces which terminates with a -16 AN Male. I can give you the part numbers if you need them but basically it is all the seals, and parts to adapt out using their 993 to -16 fittings. I don’t know who else makes one. The 993 just has a rubber hose that connects to a metal pipe on the engine. The 964 has the 30mm fitting.
Then I used a female -16AN to -16AN female to adapt out. Then a Male -16AN to 30mm male adapter. It’s a lot of adapting and I needed to space it out. I would rather weld a metal line that converted the two. There are a lot of options here. This worked for me as I need to be able to swap engine types in this car easily.

livesportm · 04-04-2011, 10:22 PM

Okay so the fuel lines were the easiest part. Except I can't remember if I swapped to a 993 line on the inlet side or it just fit.

So on the feed line the first picture is my stock 964 which the fuel line goes fairly far forward.

This is the conversion car which looks like its a 993 line going from fuel filter to the rail. I put some extra hose since it rests against the oil fill housing.

This the 993 which looks more like the one in the conversion car.

This is the return line which I believe is the stock 964 line.

The 993 fuel line has a 90 degree. Not necessary.
On the inlet I would try the stock 964 line and if it is too long then switch to the 993 just on that side.

Stan

redturbo911 · 04-05-2011, 06:12 AM

So cool pictures do speak more than words. This is great. Thank you.

hdemas · 04-05-2011, 09:07 AM

Further cross-posting to put here the info I put on Rennlist. This is what you need to do for the wiring to put a 1995 993 motor into a 964. This is the same car that livesportm (my brother) was taking pictures of.

The electronics are actually pretty easy. The below should get you a car that is running. Our car doesn't have the heater blower motor, the power steering pump, A/C or cruise control so I didn't have to deal with the electronics on those items, so you may need to figure out a few more things from the wiring schematics.

First, I will address what has to be done in the left rear corner in the engine bay. This picture shows the the 14 pin connector that is the issue.

(this and some of the pictures borrowed from Kaefer on Rennlist)

The 993 engine wiring harness has an identical 14 pin connector that plugs in here. I'm pretty sure I just plugged the 14 pin 993 connector here into the 964 body wiring harness plug, except for one modification that you need to make on the 993 harness...

- open up the shrouding on the 993 engine harness by the plug and open up the plug.
- there is a small green/black wire (I believe it goes to pin 1 looking at the wiring schematic now, but anyway, just go by color).
- take the green/black wire out of the plug and put the plug back together and plug it into the 964 body harness. Remove the tip on the green/black wire (you can solder it off or just cut it off) and then put a connector to a new wire (big red wire in my pictures) ("Big Red Wire") that you will need to run up to the area under the driver's seat.
- this picture shows the 14 pin connector plugged in, the green/black wire off the engine harness and the connector going to the Big Red Wire that runs up along the wiring harness to the area under the driver's seat (yeah, the big red wire is big and ugly, but it was all I had that was convenient when I was working on this).

Second, I will go through what has to be done under the driver's seat. Ignore the fact that in my pictures the stuff is behind the driver's seat (it is a race car and I didn't have the fancy brackets to hold things under the seat in their stock locations). Here you will need to do the following:

- the ignition control unit (7 pin connector that is in line, and the thing attaches to a heat sink) is part of the 993 electronics and just needs to be mounted. This is the flat thing on the left attached to the aluminum plate in the following picture:

It also appears at the lower right of the following picture from the area under the driver's seat of a 993.

- on the 964 body side, there is a 14 pin connector ("964 Matching Connector") and a 6 pin connector ("964 6-pin Connector"). These appear in the following picture of the area under the driver's seat of a 964.

It also appears at the top of this picture from our car:

- on the 993 engine wiring harness, there are two connectors, a 14 pin connector that is compatible with the 964 body 14 pin connector ("993 Matching Connector"), and another 14 pin connector that is larger (the "993-specific Connector"). These appear in the picture (repeated below) from under the driver's seat of a 993 (993-specific Connector on the left and 993 Matching Connector on the right, next to the ignition control unit.

The 993-specific Connector also appears (unused, just sitting there) at the bottom in the picture from my car I posted below where I am holding the 6-pin connector

- the 993 Matching Connector is a straight plug-in to the 964 Matching Connector.

- you will need to take certain wires out of the 993-specific Connector as well as the Big Red Wire that you ran from the rear of the car and plug them into the 964 6-pin Connector. I built up the male part of the 6-pin connector on my 993 engine wiring harness (being held by my hand in the picture below) to make it a nice plug-in to the 964 6-pin Connector. Anyway, here is how the wiring goes:

964 6-pin Connector Pin 2 - On the 964 body wiring harness, this is a large black wire. You will need to take the large black wire out of the 993-specific Connector Pin 2 and connect it to Pin 2 on the 964 6-pin Connector.

964 6-pin Connector Pin 3 - On the 964 body wiring harness this is a large red/white wire. You will need to take both the large red/white wire out of the 993-specific Connector Pin 3 and the small black/red wire out of the 993-specific Connector Pin 10 and connect them to Pin 3 on the 964 6-pin Connector.

964 6-pin Connector Pin 6 - On the 964 body wiring harness, this is a green/black wire. You will need to take the Big Red Wire that you ran from the engine compartment and connect it to Pin 6 on the 964 6-pin Connector. (you should see the theme here as the Big Red Wire came off of green/black wire on the engine wiring harness...the colors of the wires tend to match the function)

Here is a picture of the 6-pin connector I built up (being held in my hands) that I plugged into the 964 6-pin Connector in order to implement the above wiring:

That is all there is to it. Let us know if you have any questions. Good luck with the conversion...you will really like the upgrade.

redturbo911 · 04-09-2011, 07:16 AM

Thanks guys.

Normandy 964 · Normandy 964's Garage

Here's my oil return line, similar to 'livesportm' but partly rigid.
I do have power steering and heating, so it's petty tight and the heat hose is trapped between the oil hose and engine.
I want to try modifying a 964 hose and follow the standard 964 routing. I just got one second hand, and will try it the next time I change the oil.

Normandy 964 · Normandy 964's Garage

Here are the standard 993 mufflers (I do have a set of 'straight' pipes, but since this is my everyday car neither my neighbours or myself could cope !).

It's a tight fit...they just slot in between the bumper supports (photo 1 and 3) and a bracket on the chassis (photo 1).

The mufflers have to be made to sit lower so that they don't hit the rear lights. To do this just cut about 25mm (1 inch) off the exhaust brackets (photo 2). Just cut along the red lines.

Again, I'm not too happy about this setup (partly because whoever did it couldn't weld and it looks awfull, partly because the standard 993 sounds so lame !) and would like to change it.
I don't want to spend a fortune on aftermarket mufflers and then have to modify them anyway, so I am trying to source a set of 'ROSI' stainless mufflers. These are smaller and should fit without any modification, but unfortunately aren't made anymore.

redturbo911 · 04-26-2011, 05:37 AM

Interesting I will continue my research on the exhaust end I am thinking of going with the 993 HE and Cat then modifying something from there.

redturbo911 · 06:24 AM

Question on the oil filters did you guys run both or did you eliminate one? I know its been a while but a back injury at work put me out for a bit. Any input from you guys is always helpfull. Thank you.
P.S. I am using the 1991 964 trans so would it bolt right up as far as using the clutch pp etc or do I have to change anything to bolt up to the 993 engine?

hdemas · 09-17-2011, 07:36 AM

We have both oil filters. The 993 engine has the one oil filter on it--leave that one there. The 964 body has the large oil filter in the right rear of the engine bay. You should leave that one as well. If I recall correctly, the one in the right rear is functionally equivalent to the one that the 993 has by the tank ahead of the right rear wheel. The routing Stan posted for the oil lines contemplates running both oil filters.

964 transmission bolts right up.

993 headers and cat, plus a custom set-up for the mufflers, is the way to go.

redturbo911 · 09-17-2011, 08:44 PM

Hdemas you guys are great and so helpfull. Thank you. I will try to get some updated pictures soon. Do you remember what setup you guys have tried for the mufflers and if so what produced the best?

hdemas · 09-17-2011, 10:20 PM

I had Fabspeed Supercups on the car for a number of years. They didn't quite fit correctly and eventually started to melt part of the bumper at which point I took them off. In retrospect, I should have had them modified from the beginning to fit...it is really easy to do and would be very inexpensive to have a muffler shop do. These are loud...not too bad inside the car, but project the sound out the back of the car so you can hear it a good mile away if you are behind it. Sound fantastic. I have these on my 993, which really just sees track duty. Ok for the street as long as you drive with a lot of restraint in residential areas.

I replaced them with a custom set-up using Phase 9s. Don't do this. Quiets the car on the outside, but is actually louder inside, especially at idle, which is really annoying. Sound is ok but not as good as the Supercups. I may keep this set-up for the track as the Phase 9s help reduce the outside noise to make it better for passing sound restrictions some tracks have. For the street, I am in the process of figuring out what I am going to do to quiet the car down significantly to make it more enjoyable for the street...not an easy task as my car has no sound insulation or carpeting. I might do what some have done and start with stock mufflers and modify them to fit.

redturbo911 · 09-22-2011, 03:22 AM

hdemas what did you guys do about the air injection on the 993 motor. I was thinking of eliminateing it and capping it off at the top of the motor. Any input or comments from you guys is greatly appreciated as always. Thank you.

hdemas · 09-22-2011, 04:36 AM

We have the stock 993 air injection/smog pump. This is necessary to pass the visual part of the smog inspection every two years in California. What you do here depends on what state you live in. The smog pump adds a little weight, and helps emissions at start-up. No performance disadvantage other than the little bit of weight.

livesportm · 09-22-2011, 05:56 AM

So we left it due to smog but there are two ways to cap it going from memory.
One you pull the secondary air injection valve and cap it there at the air distribution point with I think a transmission plug (same size). Then leave the lines going to the heads.

The other way is to remove the lines and plug those. If you search in the rennlist 993 forum on secondary air caps I think you will find someone that has or sells caps to cap where the two lines connect. There are race cars and people who remove the whole assembly in other states.

BoxsterGT · 01-01-2012, 06:15 AM

For anyone else doing this swap, I would be happy to assist in making up correct M30 oil hoses/lines that will work as original.

I have just about every M30 hose end fitting in stock, and custom make ones to fit when nothing else will work.

This is a stock replacement hose I made up for a 964 a while back.............

and a custom set of hoses made for a 914-6 GT..........

Any questions, please email me. My PM box always seems to be full and I cannot send photos via a PM.

Len