Questions about a 90 C2 CAB

Mike Hall · 08-27-2004, 11:03 PM

I have noticed that the C2 is getting some bad reviews regarding some issues with the engine. I was not aware of these issues until tonight and i just bought a 90 C2 CAB today with 60K miles. First off let me tell a little about what i have learned about this car over the past few days.

First off the car has been sitting up for almost 2+ years. The owner had some health problems which caused the car to only acquire about 1000 miles in the past 4 years which cant be good for a car like this.

Upon a short test drive i was shocked and how solid the whole car felt. The car also surprised me at how strong it was for not being a turbo car. Anyhow the test drive was nice but once we got back i noticed a good amount of smoke coming from the passenger side. The owner said the car was hauled to and from the shop for service and that the car was over filled with oil.
Here are the things i would like to know.

First, would the oil on the exhaust system be related to the over filling of oil, or could it be the problem with the head that i have read about on the forum? Note that the drivers side of the engine was dry from oil so there was no leaks on that side.

Second, How can i find out if my car had the heads and flywheel updated? I have some records of service on this car but nothing about getting engine updates.

Third, If i have not had the updates where do i go to get them? This car was purchased for my wife and i do not want to have it break down on her. Is this something that a dealer has to do, and was it a recall repair back when the car was still new?

Forth, What kind of flywheel / clutch issues did this model car have and how can i find out if they have been fixed. I felt like the clutch in the car was very smooth and noticed nothing that would be a sign of problems. I have launched the car somewhat hard and the clutch seems to be as strong and it might have been new.

This will put my mind to rest once answered because im worried to death i have bought something that will cost more than its worth. The car is in what i would call very nice shape for a 90 model car with 60K on it. It did have some paint work done but after checking the car over i do not see any sign of sheet metal damage. I have been screwing around with cars for a while and have had my share of hidden damage so i checked this car out very well for past body damage and found nothing at all. The top is brand new and works awesome. I don't think i have never seen a cant top work so well and fit so tight. Anyhow i would say the car is a good 8 all around and i ended up paying $22K for it. OH yeah the car is red with black top and interior.

Mike

colo964 · 08-28-2004, 07:24 AM

$22k for a C2 Cab, what a deal!

Is the oil is on the heat exchanger or on the muffler?

Take off the sound dampening (i.e. heat restricting) fiberglass pan to see if you can see where it is oily. Also shine a light into the fan shroud to see if the top of the cylinders are oily. Check the rubber hoses on the heat exch. If oil drips inside them, you'll get a lot of smoke.

The right side has the filler cap, filter and breather hose. It's easy to spill a little oil topping it off, removing the filter, or if you have a loose or punctured breather hose. Since there is smoke, it's probably dripping from spilling into the sheet metal pan next to your valve covers (filter and fill pipe would be my prime suspects, and a loose valve cover/bad gasket is a close 3rd place). In fourth place is a bunch of thing we don't want to get into, big $$$$$. If it was overfilled, the oil tank has a pop valve on top, but you would see oil in the wheel well, no where near the hot stuff.

The updates on my 964 are a huge mystery, too. I've put 130,000+ miles on my '90 and previous owners put 50k. I don't worry about the flywheel or the heads. If I was you, I'd try to enjoy the machine rather than worry about it. I'll have my engine/drive train rebuilt in a few years, and do any modifications/updates then, if needed at all.

If your clutch is smooth and doesn't slip, you should get many more 1000 miles on it. Mine had a rock hard clutch for the first from 50k to 125k miles. I broke it shifting from 4th into 3rd when I thought I was going into 5th. My mechanic said the flywheel was an updated one and still in good shape. 60k miles later, no problems (that flywheel has at least 130k on it if not 180k). The spline was dirty and all the back-resistance weakend the hub, not to mention the 100+ ft-lbs of torque in a stupid upshift which was really a downshift. Other than that, it would have probably lasted a lot longer.

Mike Hall · 08-28-2004, 08:32 AM

Thanks for the reply. I will go check the car out some more and let you know what i find. I do remember that the oil looked to be dripping from the valve cover bolts on the passenger side. Again the Driver side was for the most part dry from oil. There Is some oil on the bottom of the engine case if that tells you anything.

Mike

colo964 · 08-28-2004, 10:14 AM

Not really. That's where the gap in the sheet metal is, so still can be a spill or loose/leaky valve cover. The wind drag from driving the car and the air flow from the cooling fan will blow that oil all over the place, so the best way to pinpoint the leak is jack it up, take off the pan (I have stowed mine since 1996, in the corner of the garage as avant-garde German scuplture), wipe off the dirt and oil and let it sit a few hours.

Another thing to check is: The oil return tubes have end o-rings that may leak onto the heat exchanger. But until you wipe it off and see it leaking there it's just a guess.

91C2wrencher · 91C2wrencher's Garage

I'll chime in on this one. A common problem(s) with the aging C2's are oil leaking from the oil pressure sender unit O-ring seal( on top of the engine just below the MAFS) you'll see oil puddled on the top of the block, and the seal on the power steering cam shaft (located just above the pass. side heat exchanger on front of engine) Mine had both at one time or another both now fixed(quite cheaply!) and no more smoke from underneath.

Mike Hall · 08-28-2004, 01:25 PM

Should a 963 have power steering?

mike

colo964 · 08-28-2004, 01:44 PM

Yeah, that's a good one. My oil press sender was leaking too. It's an easy fix. If it is leaking you should see oil on top of the fan shroud and probably on top of the cylinders (loosen your fan and shine a light into the alternator/fan area). When mine was leaking it wet both sides rather than just the right side. I also replaced my right cam seal, which dripped right onto the heat exchanger.

Mike, as far as I know all C2/C4s came with P/S. The reservoir is on the right side too.

Mike Hall · 08-28-2004, 01:52 PM

I will go look at see if i can get in idea of the leaking area. As for power steering i do not think my C2 has it being its somewhat hard to turn when at low speeds. I thought the steering was very nice at speed but even when you slow down to 10-15 to make a turn into a driveway you almost have to use both hands to steer the car.

Mike

Mike Hall · 08-28-2004, 02:47 PM

After looking through the fan and there is no oil on the top of the case nor heads. By the way the boot from the fan to the heater is busted so i could see the top of the whole engine well. ( the boot is on the way) I checked under the engine and most all of the oil is dried up and no longer leaking so i think it had something to do with the over filling of oil. There is just a hint of oil residue on top right valve cover but nothing that looks like its a problem. Just to make sure do i need to check the oil level with the car running or not running? with the car running it still shows being a touch over full but when its not running its showing oil only on the tip of the stick.

As far as power steering i still do not see how i can tell. There is no way to tell from looking under the front of the car being everything is covered. Are you guys sure that a 90 C2 CAB would have power steering or would that only be on newer cars?

Mike

Mike Hall · 08-28-2004, 02:58 PM

Here are some more pics of the car. The car has not been washed yet other than a fast interior wipe down and washing the wheels. Even with 3 years of dust it looks great though. LOL

Mike

colo964 · 08-28-2004, 05:19 PM

Good deal on the oil leak.

Yes, you need to have engine warm (thermostat open, about 8:30 or 9:00 on your temp gauge) and the engine running to get the oil level. The reading with the engine off or cold oil is useless.

By the way, your P/S reservoir is that little plastic cylinder with the yellow cap in front of the oil fill pipe, inches to the right of the air intake. Tucked against the right wall. You'll see rubber hoses coming out of it.

Mike Hall · 08-28-2004, 05:35 PM

So should my steering be so tight you need to use both hands to turn at slow speeds? I will go check this out and report back.

One other thing, the cruse is not working so where should i start to trouble shout this problem? The fuse is fine but other than that i don't even know where the Cruse components would be on the engine. LOL

Mike

Mike Hall · 08-28-2004, 05:58 PM

It does have power steering but the reservoir is empty. LOL What i need to find out is why there is not even a drop of power steering fluid in the system. Think there is a chance this is the oil thats on the right side of my engine? I guess standard power steering fluid will work right?

Mike

colo964 · 08-29-2004, 02:05 PM

Use ATF Dexron II D. The fluid capacity is just over 1 quart. If the "oil" was red then it was your P/S fluid not motor oil. Definitely check the hose clamps and look for leaks when you top it up. Let's hope it's not too late for the pump.

The cruise control unit is under the passenger seat (on the left side of the right seat). See if it's plugged in, ground wire, etc, or if it looks damaged.

I've had luck cleaning my combo switch with some brake cleaner. A few overzealous applications of armorall fouled the contacts, but no match for a little perc. If you feel brave, disconnect the battery to deenergize the airbag, careful not to let anything bridge the contacts (careful about the amount of static electricity you make), take off the steering wheel, pull the switch and check it/clean it.

Good luck.

jacks911 · 08-29-2004, 02:44 PM

Dear Mike,

Looks like you are off to a poor start with you 964 - But do not worry! These are great cars and the good price you paid - about $5000 below market should allow you to spend a few $$$ to make it right. Based on the issues so far I would strongly suggest you get the car to a good independent Porsche shop. Have them do a PPI. Once they have identified all the little issues (my guess from neglect due to the Illness of the PO) you will be much more confident in the safety & reliability of this Porsche. If you need a recomendation look-up you local PCA Club (and go ahead & join).

These engines do not like excess oil and you should get it drained to the correct level - Mid point on dip stick - engine running & hot! Do not wait to do this as damage to the fuel system can occur if oil gets in the intake.

And one other thing. If you want to learn more about the 964, invest in the book "Porsche 911 Enthusiast Companion" by Adrian Streater. There is no better book for the owner of the 964. For $70 it would have saved you all the worries & questions you have had had so far. You can find more info on Rennlist forum as well.

Regards, Jack & his '91 Purple 964

Mike Hall · 08-29-2004, 03:22 PM

Jack, thanks for the tips. I do not care to do anything but get this car reliable for my wife. The oil level is showing about right on the second twist in the stick. I would think the second notch in the stick is the full level but correct me if im wrong. I will be looking for a good porsche shop but it will not be in my area. Im sure the only shops that i will be able to find will be in atlanta or Maybe tallahassee.

Mike

jacks911 · 08-29-2004, 10:40 PM

Mike - If the oil level is at the Twist it IS to full. The notch cut in the dip stick is the full mark - but most folks who know these engines say that is to full and suggest mid point in between the two notches. Again assuming you check it at hot temp you would also see the guage inside the car peg at the top. What happens I am told is that with an over fill like yours the oil will get into the FI intake flap and gum up this very sensitive regulator. It will not damage the engine but it will run poorly and the repair is time consuming (= $$$). So again I suggest you either drain off some of that oil - or get it to a Porsche shop and have them do it as they check out your power steering system and anything else. If the Prior Owner can show a reciept for the 60,000 mile service at a reputable shop take it there. 60k maint is a Major tune and this should be done if it has not been by people who know Porsche. I think the car looks great in the pictures - but I did not see one very important & cheap update - the vent hose to the distributor. It might be there but the picture angle could cover it.
If you are between Atlanta & Tallahassee - look at these posible PCA regions - pick one near you and they can help you find a good Porsche mechanic. http://www.pca.org/regions/zone_3.html

Good luck,
Regards, Jack & his '91 Purple 964

Mike Hall · 08-30-2004, 08:13 AM

Jack, I do not think it has had a the 60K maintenance yet. Your right i have looked and I do not see a vent tube on the distributor unless its on the bottom.

I found that the North FL Porsche club is the one I need to join being im only a hour from Tallahassee. I will get some info on who can do the work on my car and get it done ASAP. Any ideas what a 60K tune up cost?

Mike

Mike Hall · 08-30-2004, 08:29 AM

I just called the Porsche dealer in Tallahassee and they stated that the 60K maintenance takes about 5 hours and cost from about $650 to $850 depending on what all needs done. Im not sure they will do mods like vent the distributor but they do sound like the check the car over very well.

Mike

jpinsly · 08-30-2004, 09:00 AM

Hey Mike,

I don't know what side of Tallahassee you are on, but I live in Jacksonville and take my 90 C2 Cab to Brumos Porsche for service. I have been very happy with the quality of work and how they treat me there.

I just purchased a 90 C2 Cab like yours. My car had 92000 miles on the clock. I took it to Brumos....I had a bunch of work done to get it right....New fuel filter, new tranny fluid, new brake fluid, valve adjustment, new battery.

The car looks and drives great now.......

Good luck with the service. I would definitely get it done now, and get it done right....You'll have the confidence that the car will be road worthy and it will put your car back on schedule for all of its normal maintenance.

Jeremy