95 993 - LWF or not?

deadsenator · 05-04-2009, 01:53 PM

I have been thinking about this upgrade for my stock 993. Some folks I talk to say don't bother because of noise and chatter. And that the main bearings will wear out faster. Is that true? I think I could deal with a little extra noise, but not a ton. Would I have to chip it to make sure the rev drops don't kill the engine? I might be willing to spring for that too, but I cleaned my ISV out last year, so at least it's clean. Thanks for any input.

DS

Tom W · Tom W's Garage

My BTDT $0.02

The main question is why do it? If your clutch is fine, leave it alone. If you do it, you will need to add the RS clutch too. The stalling issue is really pretty car specific. Some do, some don't and some are in between. A chip may or may not have a profound impact. Do you feel lucky?

I added the RS clutch and LWF in 2002 when my transmission broke. I used the "while you're in there excuse" to re-gear the transmission and add the LWF. I also added a chip designed for CA gas and the LWF.

It is more noisy. What's too much is a personal issue - you should try to listen to someone's car that has it to decide for yourself.

Mine died relatively frequently until I modified the ISV. Then it was fine for a couple years. Now it's stalling again, so I have a new ISV to add and tweak to try and reduce it. Stalling is driving style dependent - you need to let the revs decrease (to say 1500 rpm) before you shift slowly or push in the clutch and leave the car out of gear as you approach a traffic light, stop sign, etc. You'd think that after 7 years I would have it down to an art (hell, I can heal-toe pretty well in a race) but I still end up with stalls occasionally. My wife will no longer drive the car, in part because of the occasional stalls.

So, balanced against the potential down-side, what do you hope to gain? Is it worth the money to you? It isn't likely to make any difference in lap times on the track for less than an expert driver (if then).

deadsenator · 05-04-2009, 03:46 PM

Thanks for the reply, Tom. Well as it sits now, the clutch needs changed so I am spending the money no matter what. I have been firmly in the "while it's out" camp and looked at the upgrade as a way to give the car some new pep and vigor. I just did this very DMF-->SMF change on my truck with no ill effects (yes, it's a different type of vehicle). She's a daily driver and she's had me for 6-7 years. I have contemplated stepping up to a newer version (please don't tell her!), but when it came down to it, I could not see the logic in it to subject the new paint/body to the abuses of the city streets and freekway. So, I have (so far) decided to do some upgrades to give her a bit more zaz and have some fun, even if it is only within the confines of my daily commute. Eventually, she may be the track only car when I do decide on a new DD. We'll see.

On the added noise: Is it something I would feel compelled to crank the stereo up to drown out? I currently enjoy listening to the chorus of the motor. Would I still enjoy it? Would I even hear it over the new noise?

BTW: We used to have bonfires on the beach there in HMB when I was a kid. My mom worked at one of the restaurants that I believe a friend of hers owned. I'll have to ask her what the name of the place was.

Thanks again for your input!

Don Plumley · Don Plumley's Garage

I have a LWF in my car. It's great for the track, especially for heel toe.

For a DD, I wouldn't do it. There's not enough noticeable gain to offset the potential stalling issue, especially with a 95.

deadsenator · 05-04-2009, 07:49 PM

Thanks, Don. I am beginning to understand that I won't get as much out of the upgrade as I had originally thought. Darn, I was looking forward to something different. I would like a bit more zip in my car. Maybe I should lighten it up and leave the gym bag at home...

Incidentally, what would I be looking at for complete clutch R&R? I have a favorite mech, but for a sanity check I made a couple calls and two shop quotes are vastly different from each other. I think one said no engine removal and another said there was. I had thought there was. Is there a way to do it without engine R&R?

Don Plumley · Don Plumley's Garage

Mine was done by just dropping the tranny - but the wrench has to have done it before, it's tricky. Saves big $ on R&R time, plus alignment.

Make sure you replace the RMS and tranny nose seal.

Tom W · Tom W's Garage

An experienced Porsche mechanic can and will do it without engine removal. However, consider the mileage and age of the car and service likely to be required in the next 12 months when deciding which to have done. With the engine out, you can have a lot of minor stuff checked, cleaned and fixed that would be a major pain otherwise. Engine tin clean-up, spark plug and wires changed, power steering pump belt checked/changed, etc. You are going to be spending a bunch in labor on something you don't want to repeat in 6-12 months. Your car is 14 years old and it needs some attention simply due to age, regardless of mileage.

The noise is loudest at idle and not all that different while driving. Some have described it as a cement mixer sound. I have a cabriolet and it's 80 db inside the car at 60 mph with the stereo off so I don't care too much.

livesportm · 05-05-2009, 07:23 PM

One of the best upgrades you can make. It makes the car drive like a sportscar rather than a luxo cruiser.

deadsenator · 05-05-2009, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livesportm

One of the best upgrades you can make. It makes the car drive like a sportscar rather than a luxo cruiser.

Can you be more specific about what differences you feel from the upgrade, Stan?

And no trouble with stalls? What year is your 993? It sounds like OBD-II can compensate a bit, but based on Tom's experiences I might have to chip the 95 and keep the ISV pretty clean to help with the stalling.

Really, I don't think the noise issue is a problem for me, but I'd like to know that there is actually something to be gained to mitigate the potential for stalling. So far, I am leaning back toward DMF.

livesportm · 05-06-2009, 07:41 AM

The revs come more freely and they drop more between shifts. With the dual mass everything is smoother but slower.
No issues with stalls with a 95 motor or 96 motor. Both ecu's are chipped. I agree with Tom on this. It depends on what you are doing with the car. Drove a friend's cab with dual mass the other day and I was like wow! This car is quiet and smooth in traffic. Do you have a stock exhaust etc, drive in tons of traffic? I don't find the flywheel to make noise because I have a loud exhaust on the car so I can't tell the difference.
This was a factory part used on the RS so its not some untested aftermarket tuner kind of part.
I would try to find someone local that has gone to a LWF if you are unsure.

deadsenator · 05-06-2009, 11:10 PM

Thanks, Stan. I've got partially punched out stock exhaust from Robin Sun (p-car). It ads a little burble, but isn't too loud. I am in traffic quite a bit. Again, I don't think noise is the problem for me. I just don't want to deal with constant engine stalls without knowing that I am gaining enough in the performance category and it doesn't sound like I will. Since it's a DD, I'd rather have usability.

I think I am ultimately in the DMF camp.

I'll have some maintenance done while we are in there, but how about ideas on any potential mods (that won't break the bank) while the engine is out?

Since the stock rear suspension has to come apart, I am also thinking about the M030/Bilstein HD upgrade, too. No power there, but a definite upgrade in suspension performance.

livesportm · 05-07-2009, 07:24 AM

I would do the usual maintanance like spark plugs and power steering belt check. No cheap engine mods that are worthwhile. A Euro gearset is nice for the trans but they are $$$$.

The M030/B setup is a very worthwile upgrade. It will do a lot more than any performance mods. The rear suspension doesn't come apart when pulling the motor. Only the lower suspension crossmember that has the toe eccentrics in it. So you save on only having to do the alignment once.

Bill Verburg · Bill Verburg's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadsenator

Thanks, Stan. I've got partially punched out stock exhaust from Robin Sun (p-car). It ads a little burble, but isn't too loud. I am in traffic quite a bit. Again, I don't think noise is the problem for me. I just don't want to deal with constant engine stalls without knowing that I am gaining enough in the performance category and it doesn't sound like I will. Since it's a DD, I'd rather have usability.

I think I am ultimately in the DMF camp.

I'll have some maintenance done while we are in there, but how about ideas on any potential mods (that won't break the bank) while the engine is out?

Since the stock rear suspension has to come apart, I am also thinking about the M030/Bilstein HD upgrade, too. No power there, but a definite upgrade in suspension performance.

Depending on what you want for ride heights, RoW Mo30 springs are shorter though the same spring rate as US/Cdn, M030 versions

deadsenator · 05-07-2009, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

Depending on what you want for ride heights, RoW Mo30 springs are shorter though the same spring rate as US/Cdn, M030 versions

Thanks, Bill. I am not a big fan of the stock US DOT enforced ride height, though I've 'tolerated' it for years. I would rather have it lowered a bit. Carnewal has the kit for ~$2300 (US). Is that the going rate? I presume that they are selling the RoW springs. But you are saying that I would need to go with the RoW Mo30 springs and not the US Mo30 set for a lower ride...? Would the US Mo30 not lower the car as much? I guess I had not thought about them being different, but it makes sense. What impact does that have on the Bilsteins?

Bill Verburg · Bill Verburg's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadsenator

Thanks, Bill. I am not a big fan of the stock US DOT enforced ride height, though I've 'tolerated' it for years. I would rather have it lowered a bit. Carnewal has the kit for ~$2300 (US). Is that the going rate? I presume that they are selling the RoW springs. But you are saying that I would need to go with the RoW Mo30 springs and not the US Mo30 set for a lower ride...? Would the US Mo30 not lower the car as much? I guess I had not thought about them being different, but it makes sense. What impact does that have on the Bilsteins?

one of Gert's choices is the RoW M030 w/ Bilstein HD. Yes, he's as good as any to biuy from

no, the US M030 won't lower the car as much as RoW M030

rattlsnak · rattlsnak's Garage

FWIW, I noticed a difference in my 95 993 when i did the RS setup. It reved much faster and after the ISV adjustment only stalled once or twice a week if that, ONCE you alter your driving habits. As far as noise, I didnt find it loud at all. Of course you could hear it, but not bad. Was it worth the extra cash?? In the long run, probably not. Especially in a street car.

aigel · aigel's Garage

My chief complaint about the LWF would be that you can not drive at slow speeds in town (i.e. 10 mph in second) without the car bucking. This is not a big issue, as I do not like to drive the car in town and stop / go traffic anyway.

There is no stalling issues - including when other people drive the car. You just have to rev it a little higher before engaging the clutch when accelerating from a complete stop. Idle rpm is low, but there is no stalling at idle ever.

The only noise I notice (car came with LWF from PO) is some chattering at idle, which occurs only occasionally.

If you drive the car on the track and / or spirited in canyons etc. more than you sit in city traffic with it, I recommend the upgrade. If you at all commute with heavy traffic, I do NOT recommend the upgrade.

HTH,

George

Tom W · Tom W's Garage

George: You have a '97 and the ECU is different than the '95, that's why you don't have stalling issues. It can be a problem on a '95.