964 vs 993 prices

[rbogh901]

It seems like 964 prices are moving upward towards 993 prices in the last 3 years. Maybe they aren't selling at the asking prices but the gap may be narrowing. And there aren't as many being listed from what I see. Coupes with 5 speeds especially seem to be getting harder to find. Is it just a lull or are the 964's getting deserved respect?

[wolf76]

I think they're catching up. It could be that people are gravitating towards the more traditional look of the air cooled 9911's along with more modern equipment. Also they are realizing that any problems associated with the 964's are either exaggerated or have been fixed over the years.


Chris

[jjwood]

Not to mention that 993 prices seem inflated compared with the 964's. If you want 3.6L, air cooled, relatively modern interior, and A/C, you can get a lot more car for the money buying a 964.

[axl911]

There are some differences that make the 993 higher priced than the 964.

- 272/285hp vs. 247hp...likewise torque

- Easier maintenace & less cost with the hydraulic lifters in the 993

- R134 AC

- More modern LSA suspension. This is difficult to place a value on unless you track heavily.

[rbogh901]

yes, that is correct and is noted in many comparisons, however, the price gap seems to be narrowing...


just two data points, but they seem more and more representative of current pricing, or not?

For Sale: 1990 Porsche 964 Carrera2

FS 95 993 Aventurine Green Coupe $26K

[gbc]

Originally Posted by axl911

There are some differences that make the 993 higher priced than the 964.

- 272/285hp vs. 247hp...likewise torque

- Easier maintenace & less cost with the hydraulic lifters in the 993

- R134 AC

- More modern LSA suspension. This is difficult to place a value on unless you track heavily.

agree (notwithstanding my last car was a 964, only for style preference). 993 was a much more advanced car & eliminated the issues the C4 of 964 generation had...saying all of that, if i were to dip my foot in the pond of aircooolers again would be rough, turbo lag 930 edition.

[GregB7S4]

The supply of nice 964's is very low which must contribute to the rising prices. Nice 993s are relatively plentiful. Try finding a nice 964 coupe FS-not easy. I suspect 993 prices will always be higher than 964 prices as they were last of the air cooled cars and highly regarded.

[rbogh901]

"Nice 993s are relatively plentiful. Try finding a nice 964 coupe FS-not easy. "


Exactly. Reasons may include a preference for the more classic 911 appearance of the 964 vs 993 or whatever. This thread is not meant to discuss the relative virtues of one or the other, all of those points are valid, but rather to ask if it seems that 964 values are closer to 993 values than they have been in the past few years.

Yes or no. It may just be my imagination.

[raoul]

forget the power difference, a re-chip will get you into the same ball park as the 993 for not much money. my fully rebuilt c4 feels properly quick with a fabspeed rear box, re-chip and cone filter, way quicker than my 242bhp 3.2 carrera.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by axl911

There are some differences that make the 993 higher priced than the 964.

- 272/285hp vs. 247hp...likewise torque

- Easier maintenace & less cost with the hydraulic lifters in the 993

- R134 AC

- More modern LSA suspension. This is difficult to place a value on unless you track heavily.

Sorry I know this is not about the virtues of one over the other but I have to say the HP is easily adjusted and can rival a 993 with chip and exhaust work. R134 was used on all 964's from 1993 forward, hydraulic lifters save you the cost of a valve adjustment for the first 60-100k miles but many of them need to be replaced after that costing more than the combined cost of all previous adjustments. Not to mention costlier oil changes, leaky valve covers and OBD II issues.

The suspension is nothing special. Derived from the 928 it is smother on the street and very expensive to adjust for the track. Most shops are not competent to get it right and C4's have a tendency to run through rear tires like oil in an air cooled engine. I find the ratio difference of the steering rack to be more noticeable than anything.

The fact is both cars are quite similar. The varioram was a nice addition and styling is subjective. There were far more 993's made than 964's for the US market. With a little over 6000 964's in both C2 & C4 & RSA configuration vs the 993 at 7900 not including all the C2S/C4S cars roughly 4070 that is far more to chose from there were also more 993 cabs built than coupes. So you have many more to chose from. Add the age of the 964 and that many have been used, abused and discarded nice examples are becoming harder to come by.

Then we have the new car factor. As the 993TT's have dropped along with the 996TT's become close to the price of a 993 many 993 owners are heading towards the newer cars just for pure performance. There is also a lot on the used market in that price range.

The 964 has been hard to find in good condition for the last 3 or 4 years. It is durable easy to modify and has all the best of what Porsche became famous for. The price is reasonable enough it is attracting many different types of drivers than it did before.

All these things add up to increased pricing.

Both are great cars but the market is narrowing and time will prove which has a more loyal following.

[Bill Verburg]

964 vs 993 is part personal taste and part tech updates

for me the 993 body is seductive the 964 not so much

993 improved several areas where the 964 was weak
1) brakes- 304x32 vs 298x28, mc 23.8mm vs 20.6mm, 993 has 4 channel availability vs 3 channel, easy up grade 322s all around
2) motor- 272 hp vs 250( 285 vs 250 in vram), you can chip 993s too
3) more room in the wheel wells for wider tires on 993
4) quicker steering rack on 993
5) alloy wheel carriers on 993 vs steel 964, available 993RS wheel carriers & GT2 tie rods(these can be used on 964 too)
6) asymmetric lsd w/ room for more robust friction disks on 993(964 lsd has limited room for better friction disks)
7) free flowing exhaust on 993
8) C4 964 is a potential money pit compared to 993C4
9) 6spd vs 5spd. Any of the stock transmissions will profit from regearing, it's easier to set up a 6spd for dual use than a 5spd.

admittedly the cost to set up a 993 suspension is well above the cost to setup a 964

JMO but you get what you pat for when you buy a 993 over a 964

[lupin..the..3rd]

Originally Posted by GregB7S4

Nice 993s are relatively plentiful.

maybe if you're shopping for a tiptronic c4 convertible.

[Traveller]

I guess I lucked in not being the ultra informed buyer that one should maybe be when making this kind of first-time purchase. All I know is that I wanted a 911 since I was about ten.

But seeing the differences that Bill outlined makes me happy I came across a very nice 993. It was the first Porsche I looked at...well I did look at a 997 an hour earlier, but it didn't do a thing for me.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Traveller

I guess I lucked in not being the ultra informed buyer that one should maybe be when making this kind of first-time purchase. All I know is that I wanted a 911 since I was about ten.

But seeing the differences that Bill outlined makes me happy I came across a very nice 993. It was the first Porsche I looked at...well I did look at a 997 an hour earlier, but it didn't do a thing for me.

997 GT3/GT3RS/Cup would be one of the few cars that could get me out of a 993. The 8.5K rev limit coupled to great gearing is intoxicating to me

[Traveller]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

997 GT3/GT3RS/Cup would be one of the few cars that could get me out of a 993. The 8.5K rev limit coupled to great gearing is intoxicating to me.

What I didn't like about the 997 was the CEOish interior...that TV screen, those buttons, etc. It reminded me of the interior of an upper end Japanese car. Not for me...maybe one day, but I doubt it.

I am hooked on my 993.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

964 vs 993 is part personal taste and part tech updates

for me the 993 body is seductive the 964 not so much

993 improved several areas where the 964 was weak
1) brakes- 304x32 vs 298x28, mc 23.8mm vs 20.6mm, 993 has 4 channel availability vs 3 channel, easy up grade 322s all around
2) motor- 272 hp vs 250( 285 vs 250 in vram), you can chip 993s too
3) more room in the wheel wells for wider tires on 993
4) quicker steering rack on 993
5) alloy wheel carriers on 993 vs steel 964, available 993RS wheel carriers & GT2 tie rods(these can be used on 964 too)
6) asymmetric lsd w/ room for more robust friction disks on 993(964 lsd has limited room for better friction disks)
7) free flowing exhaust on 993
8) C4 964 is a potential money pit compared to 993C4
9) 6spd vs 5spd. Any of the stock transmissions will profit from regearing, it's easier to set up a 6spd for dual use than a 5spd.

admittedly the cost to set up a 993 suspension is well above the cost to setup a 964

JMO but you get what you pat for when you buy a 993 over a 964

True and I agree about the C4's but for the extra money saved on the 993 you can upgrade almost everything mentioned. IMO the stock 5 speed is far easier to live with than the US 6 six speed from the factory. On the track it is more a case of driver than cars abilities. So it boils down to preference. If you own either you shouldn't be disappointed.

[GregB7S4]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

True and I agree about the C4's but for the extra money saved on the 993 you can upgrade almost everything mentioned. IMO the stock 5 speed is far easier to live with than the US 6 six speed from the factory. On the track it is more a case of driver than cars abilities. So it boils down to preference. If you own either you shouldn't be disappointed.

Great point about the US 993 gear ratios, I also prefer the 964 5 speed.

Here is a good data point proving the point about rising 964 prices; a black '92 C2 w/117k miles just sold on ebay for $24,365. This is a very strong number for a high mileage car. Ebay item number 180653618694.

Porsche : 911 - eBay (item 180653618694 end time Apr-20-11 14:49:30 PDT)

[Bill Verburg]

just goes to show that many are just posting w/ their hearts and not their heads

here's a list of most g50 5 spds and most g50 6spds


g50/20 is the trans used in all US n/a 993, notice anything when coompared to the 5spds?

[lupin..the..3rd]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

g50/20 is the trans used in all US n/a 993, notice anything when coompared to the 5spds?

Uuhhhhh it has one additional speed?

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by lupin..the..3rd

Uuhhhhh it has one additional speed?

How astute