Singer stance?

[Mike Hall]

I have been trying to figure out what Singer did to get their cars to have such a nice level stance. The best I can tell is that they are using custom shaped flares that allow for more room in lowering the car but I could be wrong. Anyone have any info on this as I really would like my 964 RSR clone to sit level and not have the tail up stance I see so often. I also want my car to sit a touch lower than normal but nothing stupid low. I stance like the singer cars would be sweet. I forgot to add that the stance must be obtained with nice wide rubber under the car. hahaha


Thanks
Mike

[PNine64]

Mike, are you looking to do something other than adjusting the ride height at each of the four corners to get the right stance?

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Mike Hall

I have been trying to figure out what Singer did to get their cars to have such a nice level stance. The best I can tell is that they are using custom shaped flares that allow for more room in lowering the car but I could be wrong. Anyone have any info on this as I really would like my 964 RSR clone to sit level and not have the tail up stance I see so often. I also want my car to sit a touch lower than normal but nothing stupid low. I stance like the singer cars would be sweet. I forgot to add that the stance must be obtained with nice wide rubber under the car. hahaha


Thanks
Mike

The Singers use RSR bodywork w/ relatively narrow tires that leave a lot of room in the fender wells
9's w/ 225/45 x17 & 11's w/ 275/40 x17

you can use MY02 996 5 spokers on a 964 8 w/ 235/35 x18 & 10 w/ 275/35 x18





or w/ 17s 8 225/45 & 9s 255/40 x17



for any of theses you need a fully adjustable suspension

[Mike Hall]

I am building a RSR clone out of my 964 so it will also have flares but, if the RSR style allow for more clearance then I will go with them rather than the turbo flares that I have now. I was thinking that maybe the Singer had the rear fender well opening moved up a bit to allow for more clearance with larger tires. I was not aware that they used such small tires so that may be how they are getting away with the low stance. I just want my 964 RSR to have a nice low level stance like that on the singer. I am not sure what wheel/ tire combo i will run but the wider the better as long as I can get a nice usable low/level stance.

For suspension, I have Cup car coilovers for all four corners. Will that be adjustable enough to do what I need?

Thanks
Mike

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Mike Hall

I am building a RSR clone out of my 964 so it will also have flares but, if the RSR style allow for more clearance then I will go with them rather than the turbo flares that I have now. I was thinking that maybe the Singer had the rear fender well opening moved up a bit to allow for more clearance with larger tires. I was not aware that they used such small tires so that may be how they are getting away with the low stance. I just want my 964 RSR to have a nice low level stance like that on the singer. I am not sure what wheel/ tire combo i will run but the wider the better as long as I can get a nice usable low/level stance.

For suspension, I have Cup car coilovers for all four corners. Will that be adjustable enough to do what I need?

Thanks
Mike

If adding RSR flares to a 964 thee are some big decisions that need to be made
1) inner or outer front side mount sub-frame position
2) n/a or turbo trailing arms

the above determine what wheels and other suspension pieces are needed.

W/ RSR flares 9 & 11 are conservative wheel choices wider can be used but w/ less freedom of components and height

[Mike Hall]

Bill, I had planned on leaving the suspension stock other than installing the cup struts and coilovers. I know I will not be able to get a nice deep offset wheel on the 964 but I hope to get enough for it to not look too funny for an RSR clone.

Mike

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Mike Hall

Bill, I had planned on leaving the suspension stock other than installing the cup struts and coilovers. I know I will not be able to get a nice deep offset wheel on the 964 but I hope to get enough for it to not look too funny for an RSR clone.

Mike

Stock 3.8RS 964 w/b w/ front suspension in the outer holes and n/b trailing arm used

Speedline
9x18 ET 48.0
11x18 ET 5.0

you can fit 10 & 12 w/ that configuration

The w/b suspension needs the 993RS uprights & tie-rods more than a n/b when lowered

[Mike Hall]

So i need the aluminum uprights from a 993 or 3.8RS? I think I would also need the Cup car struts for the 993 or 3.8RS too correct?

Mike

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Mike Hall

So i need the aluminum uprights from a 993 or 3.8RS? I think I would also need the Cup car struts for the 993 or 3.8RS too correct?

Mike

no, the 993 uprights are aluminum but won't cure the bump steer issues that will arise w/ a lowered w/b

you want the 993RS uprights which were also used on the 9643.8RS and 993GT2

if the car is not lowered too much you can keep the stock 964 uprights or use the 993 versions.

depending on where the front suspension is bolted you need either the longer GT2 tie rods(EVO versions also have mono-ball) for the outer position or 993RS(have rubber joint) or short GT2 EVO tie-rods when the 993RS uprights are used.

again first step determine where the front suspension is bolted, inner or outer position, the outer is generally chosen as other than bump steer it has better geometry.

if the inner position is chosen you end up w/ scrub radius issues which are very difficult to deal w/

[Mike Hall]

Thanks for all this info. I have yet to removed the front suspension but I should get it off soon for cleaning and inspection. The scrub radius being off only caused increased steering pressure correct? I remember a little about that when I was working on a suspension design for an offroad buggy but then again that was for dirt not pavement. haha

So the key is getting parts that are adjustable enough to fix the camber issues of lowering the car down correct? I may have a hard time finding some of those parts and even if I do i will have to pay big for them i bet. I guess I better start a fund for suspension parts as I was not aware that it would need so much to get it right. Thanks again for the info as I do not want to cut any corners on this project.

Mike

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Mike Hall

.. The scrub radius being off only caused increased steering pressure correct?....

So the key is getting parts that are adjustable enough to fix the camber issues of lowering the car down correct? I may have a hard time finding some of those parts and even if I do i will have to pay big for them i bet. I guess I better start a fund for suspension parts as I was not aware that it would need so much to get it right. Thanks again for the info as I do not want to cut any corners on this project.

Mike

up to '89 911s have a small (+) scrub radius
from '89 964 upo they have a small (-) scrub radius that allows differential brake forces across the front axle

the larger the scrub radius the more kickback in the wheel, ABS needs a small (-) scrub radius to work properly.

yes, you are opening a can of worms when you make large changes in the wheel o/s's and tires of modern cars, it's best to emulate what the factory has done, in this case just copy the 964 3.8RS suspension setup.

[TRE Cup]

Sorry

The Singer uses their own proprietary design for the flares, rockers, fenders, bumpers, and rear lid. Rob wanted something unique and the RSR flares were too wide, not arced enough, etc etc. Their parts are not available separately.

[Mike Hall]

I saw how the singer car was built and I already knew that the flares were different. That is what I was originally asking about as it seems that the wheel opening was moved up to get the car lower. I have been informed by Bill that there is way more to dropping a car to that ride hight than just making room for the wheels. I am not objecting to creating my own custom fenders and quarters as I have done that kind of work for many years just on a smaller scale. I really want a nice low/level stance and I guess I will have to do what I have to do to get it. hahaha

[Mike Hall]

BTW: I am not trying to build a 200K car like the singer is. I just want to have that squaty look that the singer cars have.

[camlob]

Originally Posted by Mike Hall

I saw how the singer car was built and I already knew that the flares were different. That is what I was originally asking about as it seems that the wheel opening was moved up to get the car lower. I have been informed by Bill that there is way more to dropping a car to that ride hight than just making room for the wheels. I am not objecting to creating my own custom fenders and quarters as I have done that kind of work for many years just on a smaller scale. I really want a nice low/level stance and I guess I will have to do what I have to do to get it. hahaha

I am in a similar situation since the wheels I bought, apparently has the wrong offsets. They scrub a little. So I am thinking of having a body shop sort of copy the Singer fender since I dont want to add a fiberglass flare. Maybe shape it a little.

[superuser]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

up to '89 911s have a small (+) scrub radius
from '89 964 upo they have a small (-) scrub radius that allows differential brake forces across the front axle

the larger the scrub radius the more kickback in the wheel, ABS needs a small (-) scrub radius to work properly.

yes, you are opening a can of worms when you make large changes in the wheel o/s's and tires of modern cars, it's best to emulate what the factory has done, in this case just copy the 964 3.8RS suspension setup.

I currently have an ET56 8" wheel running a 225 tire, would it be OK to run a 3mm spacer on the front of my 964.

Thanks for any advice.
Daryl

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by TRE Cup

Sorry

The Singer uses their own proprietary design for the flares, rockers, fenders, bumpers, and rear lid. Rob wanted something unique and the RSR flares were too wide, not arced enough, etc etc. Their parts are not available separately.

They are still sized closer to a RSR/turbo than to an SC, the resulting wheel volume is way more than on a stock 964 again closer to what 3.8RS/964t fenders will provide.

It would be so much more helpful if instead of nit picking , some useful advice was forthcoming

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by superuser

I currently have an ET56 8" wheel running a 225 tire, would it be OK to run a 3mm spacer on the front of my 964.

Thanks for any advice.
Daryl

Yes, that would be helpful wrt steering and wheel well room

964 w/ 8" fronts want ~ET52

964 Cup used
8.0 ET52.0 965.362.126.00
9.5 ET68.0 965.362.128.05 w/21mm spacer #477.501.701

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by camlob

I am in a similar situation since the wheels I bought, apparently has the wrong offsets. They scrub a little. So I am thinking of having a body shop sort of copy the Singer fender since I dont want to add a fiberglass flare. Maybe shape it a little.

Don't you have a 993?

For wheel room most just add the GT2 flares and sides and bumpers,

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Mike Hall

BTW: I am not trying to build a 200K car like the singer is. I just want to have that squaty look that the singer cars have.

If I were you I'd contact Geoffrey Ring @ Racetek Engineering

He built this beautiful and very quick 3.8RS replica from a n/b 964, he is also one of the builders of the Singer engines

excuse the damaged fender he hit a deer at Summit Point.


The build was covered in 'Total 911' Dec. 2006, Jan, Feb & Mar. 2007 issues