911 Carrera vs. 964 for the track

[88 Club Sport]

I’ve been tracking my ‘78sc ( with a ’85 3.2 ) for some time. The car is set up for 95% track use; poly bushings, 23/31 bars, tarett sways, RA1’s, light weight race seats with a limited interior, no ac, etc. It’s good for approx 230hp and weighs 2350lbs. It has be a great car to work on and drive but after the past 7 yrs of tracking it, I’m thinking of some newer technology. I do not think I want to go the Cayman/996 route and cannot afford a 04/05 GT3 so the 964 seems a logical platform to move to.

So the big question is…..will a well set up 964 really give me much more than what I have. I’d expect to do the normal to get the 964 track ready; RS clutch, KW clubsport, chip, suspension bushings etc. I’d pull out as much weight as possible with the goal of maybe 2750 and 265hp.

Has anyone any experience moving from a well set up early car to a well set up 964….would love the hear your feedback.

[175K911]

What's your objective? More HP? Coilover suspension? ABS? Or just want to build another car?

I'll throw one other option at you if you've been happy with your current car but want more power to go with the suspension.... drop in a 3.6 and big brakes. Oh, and ditch the 31mm rear torsion bars for some 33's.

[88 Club Sport]

Goods questions. I'd like improved power to weight but I’m concerned that the additional weight of the 964 might offset any gain in HP the 3.6 might give. The larger brakes and coil over suspension would seem to be a benefit.

Five years ago, the ’78 held its own with any car in the black run group. Now 60% of the cars are GT3’s and the old gal (and me!) are having difficulty keeping up with the newer technology.

Your idea of the 3.6 in the lighter car might be what I need……might have to think that one through more.

Originally Posted by 175K911

What's your objective? More HP? Coilover suspension? ABS? Or just want to build another car?

I'll throw one other option at you if you've been happy with your current car but want more power to go with the suspension.... drop in a 3.6 and big brakes. Oh, and ditch the 31mm rear torsion bars for some 33's.

[mrbeverlyhills]

I have tracked a stock 84 and currently have a 964 at a couple of events a year. There really is a world of difference between them, I tend to keep my cars stock and try to wring what I can out of them instead of sliding down the slope.

The 964 eats a 993 10 times out of 10 and gives later cars all they can handle including GT3s EXCEPT when the GT3 is driven by someone who knows how to drive it (a rarity) and especially if they take advantage of their brakes. Those things can stop on a dime.

What I like best about the 964 is it is still just a younger brother to all the 911s that went before, feel, cockpit, throttle steer all just vastly improved and it looks like one too. Later cars are only cousins at best and while they do everything better on paper it doesn't seem to translate to much of an advantage at the track.

A great 964 can be had for about 20k which to me is a phenomenal bargain and when I got mine I spent the next few months shaking my head at how good they are, how much of the fun factor they have and how underrated they are by purists: the bumpers, shark fin rockers etc. Don't kid yourself, this to me at least is one of the all time great rides. Great thread on early s board about the 964 being the new R Gruppe car, it is a huge thread but worth the read if you are in the market:
90s R Gruppe 911

[mdowell]

I am curious about the statement "The 964 eats a 993 10 times out of 10". Why is that? Looking through my manuals, the 964 is heavier and has less HP. I have a 964 and have not driven a 993 so I am genuinely curious. Thanks.

[mrbeverlyhills]

993s are great cars, I would love to have one someday but they are better daily drivers than track weapons, it isn't what is on paper so much as the overall handling. 993s are fast but at the limits a track brings out they don't lap as fast.
993s and 964 are very similar cars in many ways the 964 being the mule for 993 development but the 964 is closer to the earlier cars racing heritage and the 993 is a little closer to modern Grand Touring cars.

You don't see many 993s modded for track use and the stock ones, like all Porsches are enormous fun at the track.

[Tom '74 911]

Originally Posted by 88 Club Sport

So the big question is…..will a well set up 964 really give me much more than what I have.

Since this is your main question/objective. . . my opinion is that a 964 would NOT be significantly different than what you have lap time wise on track. By this I do not mean to infer that 964s are not good/great cars (I think they are), but just that the performance gain over your current car - which sounds like it is set up pretty well - will not be massive. Getting a 964 will not immediately allow you to beat GT3s.

My data point: Last winter, I replaced the (mostly) stock 2.7L engine in my '74 911 w/a 3.6L. Is it faster on track? Yes, by a significant amount. Can I now blow by well driven GT3s? No. I asked myself an interesting question 1/2-way through my first track day w/the new motor. . . was I having more fun than with my 2.7L? Was I having $xx,xxx.00 (the cost of the conversion) worth more fun? The answer was no again. . . For me, just being there lapping is fun. The only way I could beat well driven GT3s at the track is to buy a GT3 (or spend cubic $$ on my car rendering it all but useless on the street). Only you can decide what constitutes "fun at the track" for you. JMHO & YMMV of course.

[mrbeverlyhills]

Originally Posted by Tom '74 911

The only way I could beat well driven GT3s at the track is to buy a GT3 (or spend cubic $$ on my car rendering it all but useless on the street). Only you can decide what constitutes "fun at the track" for you. JMHO & YMMV of course.

Well, you could drop down a run group or two and blow by the GT3s in beginner class..........

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by 88 Club Sport

I’ve been tracking my ‘78sc ( with a ’85 3.2 ) for some time. The car is set up for 95% track use; poly bushings, 23/31 bars, tarett sways, RA1’s, light weight race seats with a limited interior, no ac, etc. It’s good for approx 230hp and weighs 2350lbs. It has be a great car to work on and drive but after the past 7 yrs of tracking it, I’m thinking of some newer technology. I do not think I want to go the Cayman/996 route and cannot afford a 04/05 GT3 so the 964 seems a logical platform to move to.

So the big question is…..will a well set up 964 really give me much more than what I have. I’d expect to do the normal to get the 964 track ready; RS clutch, KW clubsport, chip, suspension bushings etc. I’d pull out as much weight as possible with the goal of maybe 2750 and 265hp.

Has anyone any experience moving from a well set up early car to a well set up 964….would love the hear your feedback.

I'd just continue to develop what you have, unless you just want to have something newer/different. Just address the weaknesses as they arise which is obviously what you have been doing.

If you buy a 964 there are still going to be issues
you still need to replace all the bushes, the shocks, springs and sways for best results

the brakes are only a marginal improvement over Carrera brakes, most guys upgrade to 964RS or even 993RS

oil cooling can be an issue, most guys add a second cooler

depends on the track but some guys don't like the stock gearing much.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by mrbeverlyhills

...

The 964 eats a 993 10 times out of 10 and gives later cars all they can handle including GT3s EXCEPT when the GT3 is driven by someone who knows how to drive it (a rarity) and especially if they take advantage of their brakes. Those things can stop on a dime.

...

stock to stock I disagree, modified 964 vs stock 993 I agree

You don't see a lot of well set up 993s because it is hideously expensive to do so. But a 993 built to full RS spec is a very competent car and will be somewhat faster than an equally well driven 964RS, neither will be able to compete w/ a similarly modified 996/997/Cayman or Boxster or a well set up and driven early chassis car.

[JeremyD]

I looked at both options when I sold the cab. If you want to go fast. Keep with the current crowd, skip both and find a nice 2002 or later 996. Suspension and brakes will cost you more on the after 1989 cars.

Really depends on how much money you want to spend.

[mrbeverlyhills]

I think we are arguing semantics, if you modify anything it gets faster then the question is how far do you go. No one ever said anything about a 964 rs or similar modded 993 until you brought it up but someone seems to value the 964 rs pretty highly as they trade anywhere from 95k to 165k when you can find them so there seems to be some desirability there from aficionados.

A stock 964 is a big step up from a SC modified or not and a HUGE step up from a 74 even with a 3.6 in it. It will go up in value and is the last of it's kind.
A 993 is a cafe racer with GT bones that will also go up and is the last air cooled car.
If you are going to modify what you get it doesn't matter really, buy what you like. If you stay stock then you are going to love the way a 964 attacks road and track, comfort factor is amazing, airbag, G50, stereo, the a/c spits out ice cubes and the build quality is MBZ grade.

But I will agree to disagree with you Bill, I get out a fair amount and although I am by no means the second coming of Juan Fangio, I have never been passed by a 993 except in my 73.....

[88 Club Sport]

Ouch !

Originally Posted by mrbeverlyhills

Well, you could drop down a run group or two and blow by the GT3s in beginner class..........

[Bill Verburg]

The hot setup, after 996/997 Cup cars, around here seems to be a '72/73 RSR body, turbo braked 3.6s

I was describing how the cars are modifed for track use around here in the Northeast, most 964s are modded to approach 964RS specs, few 993s are(did I mention how expensive it is to do so). There are lots of guys running 964s, I think because the entry price is very reasonable compared to most anything else before or after except for 996s and early Boxster/Caymans.

In nominal stock form virtually any year is going to be bested by it's successors, that's just the way things are.

If you compare a stock 993 to a stock 964 the 993 will win, it's just a better car all around, but as mentioned no one has a stock car at the track except for GT3s and Cups and guys w/ new cars that haven't modified them yet.

[88 Club Sport]

Great feedback guys. Based on feedback here and over on Rennlist it appears a move to a 964 to get improved lap times might not be worth the cost and effort (lots of efforts since I'd be doing it).

The main reason for considering the 964 was improved lap times. I run in our Black group and a few years back the car was VERY competitive. Today 50% of the cars in Black are GT3's and it is becoming increasingly difficult to run with the pack per se. At the last DE, the GT3’s have me by 3 or so seconds. I guess I do not like having to point by other cars after many years of getting the point by from others

I think the best advice so far is to put a massaged 3.6 into the old gal but I'll drop $12k+ and will proably need brakes on top of that.....that's quite a bit of money into a car that is probably only worth $15k. What I really need is your car Bill

Our next DE is the same weekend as Rennsport at Laguna, one of my favorite tracks. I chose to go to Rennsport so I have some time to ponder what I'll do for next year. Thanks again for everyone’s input.

[Bill Verburg]

The 996/997 Cup guys that go for a ride w/ me love the car, but it was way too expensive to build, I could have purchased a 964/993RS or even a 996Cup for what I have in it.

The last 964 Cup hold out around here just sold his car to a collector in Belgium. His issues w/ 964 were rear wheel bearings and half shafts, but this guy drove the car harder then most by far.

996Cups are getting to be somewhat reasonably priced, I didn't look at them too hard just because of their looks.

An Interseries Cayman is another very fast, pretty reasonably priced track car

here's one behind me, but not for long, he blew past me like I was standing still shortly after this pic was taken, 2 others had already gone by

[88 Club Sport]

Thanks Bill. I've thought about the Cayman but without the dry sump engine, I do wonder about longevity on the track and it is HEAVY. I think they are still in the mid $35k and by the time you do the mods to get it on the track, (wheels/tires, seats, motons etc) you are into it for another $10k. Heck....you are getting close to 996 GT3 prices. An Interseries Cayman would be fun but not cheap and where I live (Rocky Mtns) a car that you can throw a plate on is still appealing.

It's funny, my wife just reminded me about the Club Sport. "why don’t you get rid of the dang Club Sport to a collector and buy a GT3" Hmmmm, the last CS went for $70 and I think the SC could bring in $16k.....that gets you close to a GT3 997.2 territory.

Decisions, decisions. Heck, when I get back from Rennsport, I'll want to sell the SC, CS and the freaking house and go buy a whole bunch of race toys

[Schwarzeritter]

It's apples and oranges.

It really comes down to how well set up a specific vehicle has been set up.
Once a vehicle has been modified all bets are off, I remember not long ago
when I was over in Japan, a highly modifed 993 was murdering guys left right
and sideways, I've seen SC's do bad things to 997's. Go figure, and I have see
the otherway round.

Take Bills car for example, it's been very well sorted, very well developed, beyond what
a normal 993 that Porsche offerd from the factory. If you modifed and re-enforced your chassis and went thru the nuts bolts and details.

However, one thing I will say is I think most people choose power emphasized modifications over gear box. There is also such a thing as too much grip, and matching suspension to tire compound is important. Developement is a is all about evolution. I think Bill's car is a prime example.

However street usage vs track usage is a very very differen game. Tracks go round and round. I think the most important thing is that the driver to vehicle interface is not combative, by this I mean the steering, gear box, ergonomics aren't against you.

Good luck -

[dfink]

I have two cars 84 3.4 273 RWHP 2150 lbs wide body hard top cabriolet and a 92 C4 pretty much bone stock. Both are a blast on the track. The light weight high HP car is going to be faster but is much harder to drive. Shifting is not as precise, no anti-lock brakes, no power steering. The 94 C4 is much easier to drive, the tranny is much more precise and has a self centering 3-4 shift plane. However it feels a bit stiffer to me as does the entire car. The 915 tranny is a bit sloppy but once you have it down they can be very smooth to shift if they are in good shape. The 964 has fantastic low end pull but runs out at about 6000. That doesn't matter because I run out of track at about 6000 in 4th so works out OK for me. The anti-lock brakes work really well but take a bit to have faith in them. Tire wear on the C4 was interesting in that with very little camber tire wear was very even. There wasn't a large wear difference between the front and rear as in my 84 and wear was actually quite a bit lower than I expected for the weight of the car and my full on driving habits.
I haven't had a problem with the infamous C4 push. In fact I find the car quite easy to spin. The push mostly would show up in high speed sweepers while accelerating out. When the push starts just reach over with the left foot and tap the brake and you can feel the car come back. It was pretty well behaved and easy to save on street tires. On toyo RA1's the edge was a bit thinner line.
So now for the shameless plug. My 3.4 is for sale PMO ITBs and dual plug TEC3r full system ready to rock and roll for $15K can't touch the parts for that. I might even consider the 92 C4 for 19ish in any case HP is more fun than no HP. Ah if you want to really rock the entire 84 wide body is $24K

[Stuttgart951]

With no intention of taking the thread too far off course; a blanket statement like "10 times out of 10, etc, etc" strikes me as a tad rich.

If you've got enough seat time; you already know that the guy behind the steering wheel is 80% of the equation. My 993 is prepped only for "mild" track use and I can pass a poorly-driven F430 just as easily as an expertly-driven Miata can pass me.