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993 RS top mounts
This note is about 993 RS top mono-ball mounts/camber plates. This topic is well covered by 993 owners (see links below), but they also fit 964 with PSS9/10.
Factory part differ from most aftermarket units: 1. Dust control. Porsche parts are sealed from both top and bottom and also between plates. Dust/sand really hurts open ball joints, using open balljoints on the street or on autocross parking lots wears them off very quick. Most DE tracks are not clean either. 2. Street/track setting - it's not unusual to drive 100miles to and from driving events. Trip will wear inner tire very quick with 2+ degree camber. Factory units can be switched from street to track configuration in 5mins per side - 3 bolts. 3. Factory units cost only $200 more compared to most of aftermarket parts. 4. Here's not good one - you need special top mount nuts described by ToSi (Tom) on rennlist in this thread. Otherwise failure described by Richard on his website in this post will happen. Richard eliminated spacer #18 - turned to be bad idea. Here are some pics with details. Parts needed (also described in 993 links above) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ates/parts.jpg part #'s https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...es/photo-2.jpg ToSi nuts (I bought them from him, there was discussion on rennlist to do batch), dimensions see his thread. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...s/IMG_1029.jpg Factory street/track settings description: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...adjustment.jpg And illustration: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...s/IMG_1024.jpg Top sealing nut (all aftermarket have hole in it to get dirt/sand inside:) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...s/IMG_1025.jpg Inter-plate hard rubber seal: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...s/IMG_1026.jpg Lower strut seal (rennline started to use similar seal, but most of other aftermarket plates have open ball joint) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...s/IMG_1027.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...s/IMG_1028.jpg Also, strut brace is highly recommended with hard ball joint. Stock rubber mounts have enough rubber to flex and not transfer load to chassis, so I do not see need for strut brace and rubber mounts. There was nice post on miata forums where somebody calculated all loads. Also, I think with autocross tires strut brace is probably enough. Full blown race slicks may stress chassis more and extra welds on chassis is probably good idea - factory did that on RS Oleg. |
Ok, new update here. here we go.
Weights 993 front rotor weight - 8.265kg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1284.jpg 964 front rotor weight - 6.920kg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1142.jpg 993 front caliper weight - 3.354kg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1136.jpg 964 front caliper weight - 2.870 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1135.jpg 964 upright with bearing, abs gear and big bolt/nut - 7.915kg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1152.jpg 993 RS upright with bearing, abs gear and big bolt/nut - 6.555kg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1153.jpg 964 front strut upper mount/bearing - 1.215kg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1181.jpg 993RS front strut upper mount/bearing - 0.900kg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1182.jpg run out of images per post limit - see next .... Oleg. |
PSS9 front strut (only) - 4.145kg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1179.jpg PSS9 front main and helper springs - 1.320kg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1180.jpg PSS9 assembly + 993RS top mount - 6.75kg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1192.jpg More to come. Can somebody please weight stock 964 strut/spring assembly? Thanks! Oleg. |
Here's from my view
SmileWavyThe ultimate 964 enthusiast front suspension setupSmileWavy Suspension that factory never put in 964 (even factory RS lacks some goodies). Built with mostly factory parts. One may have "faster" race setup, but for enthusiast and semi street car this is pretty good. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1096.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1256.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1283.jpg 964 cross member 993 longitudinals NOT 964 longitudinals - see Jan 12 post 993 control arms 993RS uprights 993RS tie rods 993RS upper mounts/camber plates 993 brake calipers/rotors (or big reds/big rotors are bolt on this stage, too heavy IMHO) 993 wheel hubs, hybrid ABS gear (see posts above). 993 brake booster (... some know this may get replaced with hydraulic booster :p) 993 brake master cylinder H&R sway bar 993 Bilstein PSS9/10 coilovers WOW:D I'll post details of conversion Oleg. |
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converting 964 to 993 brake master cylinder/booster
Here are few notes on 993 master cylinder/booster fitting. You need to use 993 mounting bracket, here's difference: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1232.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...IMG_1239-1.jpg I heard that some people had problems with sway bar clearance. I had no issues with H&R bar - plenty of clearance: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1238.jpg Here's 964 plumbing for MC/booster: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1241.jpg 993 MC uses 12mm thread. There are few of ways dealing with it. I tried BMW brake lines and had trouble fitting them - too short. I ended up getting 12 to 10mm adapters from Autozone. They require flare fitting instead of bubble which is used on Porsche. I bought 2 bubble end lines and one flare end line. Cut bubble end lines to fit and reused flare end nuts .... https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1257.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1264.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1260.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1258.jpg here's result: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1261.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1267.jpg |
993 vs 964 ball joints
Now and then it was discussed here and on rennlist of 964 ball joints can be used with 993 uprights (RS or regular). Cone section will fit opening, but cone geometry does not match and also length is different. At end of the day - use 993 ball joints. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1165.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1171.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1166.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1169.jpg |
993 ABS sensors and strut mounts
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../abs_bolts.jpg Also when converting to 993 uprights ABS sensors from early 993 (p/n 993-606-404-00) should be used - they have different orientation from 964. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1175.jpg Also bolts #3 & #5 parts from 993 need to be used. 964 parts will not fit. #3 (p/n 999-072-006-01) M14 on 993 and M10 on 965 #5 (p/n 999-067-039-09) M12 on both but pitch is different . https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1082.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1211.jpg |
Alignment
Well after I put that all together. I started to align. I run 12' per side - stock toe. Toe barely aligned - to get to stock toe I had to remove steering stops and even after that - this is how much thread was left: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1293.jpg Also my camber maxed out at 1deg negative - no good. Now returning back to this discussion back from Feb 2013 Quote:
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Ordered and got 993 longitudinals. WOW - that is the most 993 unique piece of 993 front suspension! Looks like porsche engineering did some serious work here ... https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1295.jpg So 993 longitudinals push control arms out about 10mm per side - that explains official difference in front track between 2 cars! Here's pic of another side: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1304.jpg Weights https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1309.jpg After installation of new longitudinals I had to move stops on swaybar - again about 10mm outside: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1311.jpg After this change - plenty of thread for alignment and steering stops in place: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1306.jpg at stock toe: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1314.jpg I got about 2.5 camber at 964 RS height with plates maxed out. Still not huge. One thing that makes me think - on 964 upper mounts are close to each other - this gives extra room for camber. Camber plates were designed for widebody 993 which made me think that installing RS camber plates on narrow body 993 is probably not best solution .... So on 964 993 longitudinals is way to go. Also on 964, because upper mounts are "narrower" you get extra camber. Oleg. |
Hi Oleg - Thanks for sharing so much good info! What bushes are you running?
Thanks, Marc |
Marc, I use Chris Warlod poly bushes:
964 / 993 Control Arm Bushings - Rennlist Discussion Forums 993 people are happy with them, Jeff from Rothsport suggested them also. Probably ideal will be to have rubber (stock or Elefant) in back - rubber does absorb vibration, saves stress from chasis and steering rack. As for fronts - poly should be much better than rubber, see my other post on front rubber flex that causes toe out under braking. PS I also ordered poly bushes for steering rack, but did not used them - fit was not good and I do not want to put extra stress on fragile looking steering rack mounting brackets. i did used 993 steering rack brace - it is on pics. Oleg. |
so w/ the 993 longitudinals did you find any more tire interference at the lips?
as to the bushings in front you have 3 options, in order track oriented to street oriented uni-balls hopefully w/ seals -no play and on stiction and no maintenance but they will wear out quicker than most others p/u w/ no give and must be kept lubricated at all times or wear and noise will be accelerated sport(stiffer) rubber in the leading and trailing positions, this is a wonderful compromise sport rubber in the trailing regular in the leading, this is what was used on RS regular rubber in both leading and trailing position, this is what all the regular cars have |
Had few hours after work. With 993 longitudinals camber maxes out at 3deg at RS+5mm height. That's more than enough even for full blown race setup. So, one can have 1deg in "street" single hole setting and adjustable 2.30-50 in slotted holes for weekend events.
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After all, according to official specs track increased 25mm or 12.5mm per side. Think about it as having 1/2in wheel spacers (very expensive:D) Oleg. |
One more note on narrow vs wide body front suspension:
distance between longitudinals mounting points on cross member is 30mm: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1346.jpg this is wider than 12.5mm by using 993 longitudinals in inner holes. Available front configurations: 964 longitudinals in inner holes - 0mm (stock track width) 993 longitudinals in inner holes - +12.5 mm (on each side) 964 longitudinals in outer holes - +30mm (on each side) 993 longitudinals in outer holes - +42.5 mm (on each side), that must be sick wide, RWB should use that:) |
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the alternate holes in the chassis are 30mm outboard on each side and given that the difference between 964 and 993 longitudinals is 5mm/side 964 longitudinals in inner holes - 0mm (stock track width) 993 longitudinals in inner holes - +5mm mm (on each side) 964 longitudinals in outer holes - +30mm (on each side) 993 longitudinals in outer holes - +35 mm (on each side) as I noted earlier in this thread some 993Cups used the 964 long. in the outer mounts on a n/b w/ the same wheels as w/ 993 long. in the inner mounts the cars that used the outer mounts were the 964 3.8RS, 993RSR and 993GT2 evo all of these used 9 to 11" front wheels |
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Oleg. |
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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1295.jpg |
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Oh, boy, I was not clear enough. Bill, if you look at red curved arrows and also at crossmember (steering rack side) mount you'll see whole longnitudal is pushed out and brake booster mounts are extended inwards. A arm mounts are extended about 5mm, but total is 12.5mm. You can easily derive 12.5 from track width difference between 964 and 993 also:). Here's repost of reverse side https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...d/IMG_1304.jpg |
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I was going to ask for the measurement from the chassis mounting hole axis to the suspension mounting hole axis but it appears that you did that and that is where the 12.5mm # comes from. Thanks for taking the time to do this, it's something that has bothered me for years. |
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