KW V3 or KW Clubsport or Bilstein PSS10 on 964 C4?

[SvnS3]

Hey Guys what do you think,

I want to buy one of the following Sets:

- KW V3
- KW Clubsport with complete Uniball
- Bilstein PSS10

I will only drive on the "Autobahn" and "Country Roads", not on the Track.

Here in Germany the Love is leveled between PSS10 and KW V3, but I canīt find someone who could compare the two, only people who have the KW or the Bilstein.

Hope you could give me some Tipps.

Thanks a lot.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by SvnS3

Hey Guys what do you think,

I want to buy one of the following Sets:

- KW V3
- KW Clubsport with complete Uniball
- Bilstein PSS10

I will only drive on the "Autobahn" and "Country Roads", not on the Track.

Here in Germany the Love is leveled between PSS10 and KW V3, but I canīt find someone who could compare the two, only people who have the KW or the Bilstein.

Hope you could give me some Tipps.

Thanks a lot.

Why would you want uniball for street use?
go w/ the PSS10 and be done w/ it

[SvnS3]

Hello Bill,

thanks for your advice. Iīm not sure with the uniball. I want to buy new original "Stützlager" (i think in english it called original camber plates). And the price is equal for unable, so I think about it.

Is there anything the Bilstein could do better than the V3?

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by SvnS3

Hello Bill,

thanks for your advice. Iīm not sure with the uniball. I want to buy new original "Stützlager" (i think in english it called original camber plates). And the price is equal for unable, so I think about it.

Is there anything the Bilstein could do better than the V3?

I believe that KW are all twin tube shocks and are not rebuildable or retuneable

PSS10 are mono tube shocks and are rebuildable

The Bilstein upside down design reduces unsprung weight

You will have to make some custom bushes if you want to use PSS10 w/ uni-ball/camber plates, but I still don't understand you would want to for street use, even in Deutschland.

If you are set on uni-ball camber plates then get some Bilstein b6 or b8 shocks and have them custom valved for the springs and weight of the car. These are 36mm mono-tube front and 46mm mono-tube rear gas shocks, the b6 is more for stock height(though there is a 20mm shorter version) b8 are for lowered cars or you can go all the way to the Motorsports Bilsteins though they are getting very difficult to obtain.

The only thing I don't like about the b6/b8/motorsports shocks is that they all use older valving, they all can benefit from a digressive revalve to suit the specific application.

the PSSS(aka b16) is a digressive design that is user tunable, it is designed to use stock mounts. Bolt them on and go.

[SvnS3]

Thanks a lot. That sounds good and logical for me.

So it will be the PSS10. Here in Germany I could get the Bilstein Clubsport (not the PSS10).
What you think of that?

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by SvnS3

Thanks a lot. That sounds good and logical for me.

So it will be the PSS10. Here in Germany I could get the Bilstein Clubsport (not the PSS10).
What you think of that?

Got a link? I don't see any Porsche applications for Bilstein Clubsport

[SvnS3]

I could get it from a Motorsport Company. It has to be this one......

BILSTEIN Clubsport

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by SvnS3

I could get it from a Motorsport Company. It has to be this one......

BILSTEIN Clubsport

Yes, I saw that. I haven't been able to find any Porsche fitments for the Clubsports

[SvnS3]

But on their Website I couldnīt find it for the 964.

Is it possible to get lower than RS riding high with the PSS10? With KW V3 it is.

[sy0296]

going down this route myself, and be careful, the costs start jumping up very quickly

a simple suspension refresh/upgrade for me turned into: evo uprights, rs tie rods, 993 big reds, 993 turbo master cylinder, mcs double adjustable shocks with external reservoirs (993 front and 964 rear), monoball top mounts, custom spacer for the rear struts, upgraded bushings, + a thorough cleaning of the old suspension parts and under carriage.

to go lower than RS height, switching to 993 evo uprights is the recommendation, especially if the car is seeing any type of track time. going lower than RS height will change the suspension geometry too much and cause bumpsteer that many people choose to live with on the street, but will add seconds on the track

993 evo uprights means also RS tie rods or aftermarket adjustable tie rods, and 993 brakes. then possibly an in-line brake bias valve to adjust the front/rear brake bias, or upgrade the rear brake system with 993 ones as well.

993 uprights also means you will need 993 specific front struts (or make modifications to use 964 front struts).

finally, make sure you don't have one of the earlier production cars like i do (mid/late 1990 production and forward). if you have an earlier production model with the pre-update rear suspension, you will need to order the correct struts, or use the updated style struts with a custom spacer. i found that going with updated style struts with spacers is the better way to go because there is more selection in makes/models

add cost of refreshing bushings, tidying things up a bit "while i'm in there" it may or may not be worth it to you to try to go lower than RS height

anyways, basically:
1. buy one of the kits and be done with it (i'd go with pss9/pss10 over kw v3). both kits will go lower RS height, but you give up suspension travel and risk bottoming out, and live with the bump steer
2. do it right, put together a custom "kit", shorter shock bodies so you can still go low and retain suspension travel, find the right spring rates for your uses, 993 evo uprights to correct the bump steer (plus necessary parts for 993 uprights), refresh older/worn out parts while you're at it, and have a great handling car

good luck and have fun!

[beamonk]

What is the current best set up for a driver, no track, limited use on bumpy city streets? I want to lower the height a bit but not overboard. It is all stock with sachs and it is a carerra 2.

Thanks

John

[nickd]

Always amazed with Bill's knowledge!
I'll offer: KW V3 benefit is that they the shock bodies are stainless steel. I don't believe that any of the Bilsteins are. Certainly not the B6 bodies. The corrosion resistance was enough to sway me to the KW line.

I wouldn't think that mere mortals could tell the difference between monotube vs twin tube design. However, Penske/Moton/etc are all monotube.

I don't see a performance reason why not to use monoball top mounts, street or track. In fact they have only benefits. No aging/cracking rubber. Cheap replaceable bearings. And no added NVH that I can perceive.

Monoball mounts, however, are not compatible with regular C2/C4 coilovers (unless you want to keep US ride height) or standard shocks (unless you like US ride height and can fabricate) unless they are specifically made to use them.

So far, using the RS KW V3 kit, I find that the softest settings are very comfortable on the street without ever feel too soft. The hardest settings are way too much for the street and are track-only. Great dual-purpose.

Beamonk- The typical budget upgrade is Bilstein HD/B6 with H&R springs. A much better ride than the stock parts, but it's a compromise. I found it slightly too harsh in pothole-laden Boston but it was excellent on smooth roads.

Hope this helps!

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by SvnS3

But on their Website I couldnīt find it for the 964.

Is it possible to get lower than RS riding high with the PSS10? With KW V3 it is.

The lower you go the more of an issue bump steer becomes

964RS used a version of the steel wheel carriers that was used on other 964s, but they went to an aluminum wheel carrier that lowers the tierod connection 30mm so that the cars could run at lowered height
here is a summary


Bilstein specifies that the b16(aka PSS10) can be run 30-50mm lower than stock RoW height so by my calculations that's RS height at the lower end

The 993RS wheel carriers are
993.341.157.81
993.341.158.81
and you need the outer tie rod ends from the complete tierod set
993.347.031.81 x2

these can be used on a 964 but you would need either 993 or 993RS rotor and calipers and the 993 rear calipers and the 993 m/c and booster assembly

What is called evo is simply the 993RS wheel carriers described above

Sure yon use uni-ball mounts on the sreet but they don't have the life expectancy of the oe's and they can make distracting noises when worn, they are race parts.

I suppose corrosion can be a concern if you drive on salty roads, but then the uni-balls will be even more of a concern, you can't have it both ways

As I noted you really want digressive valving w/o it the shocks will be harsh, w/o it they will be steel fists in velvet gloves, it makes a stiff race suspension streetable. b16 come w/ digressive valves b6 and b8 and the Bilstein motorsports do not. When I bought the Motorsports shocks I had them revalved from day 1 to suit my car and use, worth every penny.

b16(PSS10) is not a race suspension it is a high performance street suspension. It is an all in one out of the box solution that works well. Better for street but still ok for occasional track use.

[nickd]

"Sure yon use uni-ball mounts on the sreet but they don't have the life expectancy of the oe's and they can make distracting noises when worn, they are race parts.

I suppose corrosion can be a concern if you drive on salty roads, but then the uni-balls will be even more of a concern, you can't have it both ways"

Indeed! Stock RS mounts, and the Rennline versions are sealed on the bottom of the bearing. Corrosion shouldn't be much of a worry, but time will tell.

Did not know that 964RS used a different wheel carrier? I thought that only the 993RS was different? I'm at 964RS height, no significant bump steer feedback. Unless I'm just used to it...

[rbogh901]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

I believe that KW are all twin tube shocks and are not rebuildable or retuneable

PSS10 are mono tube shocks and are rebuildable

The Bilstein upside down design reduces unsprung weight

Maybe you know: Are the PSS-9s still rebuildable?

[JV911SYDNEY]

PSS10!

The guys who built my car say it is by far the best handling C4 they've ever driven and these are guys with 40+ years of 911 experience

It's remarkably compliant too (i.e. not harsh over bumps)

[boba]

I have PSS10's on my '90 C4 Targa and just returned from a 3000+ mile trip to the LA Lit Show. The car was very comfortable plus the handling on spirited twisty back roads is confidence inspiring. For frequent track use I would go a few clicks stiffer, they are set at 3 for the street.

[Shamus911]

Just to clear up a little mis-info, the KW V3's are in-fact rebuildable and they are a fantastic setup. I love them on my 964 and from the feedback I've seen online and heard from folks firsthand with experience of both, they are as good (at least) as the PSS10's for what it's worth.

Good luck with your decision!

[iamtheari]

Where does one find PSS10's? Are they available for the early 964 with its different rear shock upper mount? My car had what appear to be H and R springs over Bilstein shocks and it has a great ride height and feels good on the track, but an adjustable setup would be nice to soften the ride on the street and stiffen it on the track. There just aren't a lot of options for the earlier cars, it seems.

[crg]

I bought my pss10's (for a 89 C4) through autoplicity...cheapest I found anywhere on the www, around 2400 usd