964 vs 993

[Calspeed]

So, I am deciding between both of these models. Im hoping that you fine folks can give me some needed knowledge to help make my decision.

I'm not looking for maximum hp. Not looking for a turbo either. (cant afford it) But I am looking for longevity and overall performance. For instance, something that doesn't constantly break down like a modern Mercedes.

What are the things about each model that I need to be aware of? Do the motors typically need a rebuild after a certain amount of mileage? 100K 150K 250K?

Should I not buy a car with 100K miles on it? Both the 964 and the 933?

Is there anything specific about each model? I heard something about the IMS in the 996 models. But I am specifically looking for an air-cooled version.

My preference is the styling of the 993. But the smallness of the 964 is very attractive to me. I used to own an 85 Carrera.

Thank you for the help. Currently

[Dmitry at Pelican Parts]

Check out the link below for a good guide to the 993 platform. There should be other threads where comparisons are made and other details included. Best of luck on the hunt!

To all prospective 993 buyers....long


-Dmitry

[teeitup]

In addition to what you learn here you should also search on Rennlist. They have both a 964 and 993 Forum and what you read on each will undoubtedly be slanted toward that model. I considered both but bought a 964 for the original body style. You can't go wrong with either.

[Cobalt]

There are as many similarities as there are differences between the two models. The tub is essentially the same with the rear suspension modification to the 993. It might just look bigger. They are both great cars. Although finding a 964 coupe is getting harder all the time. The later MY cars 92-94 C2/C4 are most desirable but they only made 1275 C2 and C4's in both tip and 5 speed for the US market. Finding one today is tricky and can be expensive.

As far as the 993 if you can find a C2S or C4S it is one to consider but again harder to find and far pricier.

I find what draws one person to a 993 is usually what a 964 lover avoids and vice a versa. The 993 is more refined has more modern amenities and they did improve a number of things that you can upgrade a 964 with. The 964 has more classic lines but the bumpers are not everyones liking. I find the 964 much more appealing to my needs I have friends who only prefer the 993.

Drive them both If you are used to a 3.2 C than the 964 is more in line of what you are familiar with. The problem as I said is very few were made and so many have been converted to long nose clones or Singers.

[kreeshp]

I own both a 993 C2 and a 964 C2. Started with a 993 then got the 964 three years after owning the 993. Both were bought before the most recent run up in valuations.

My 993 is mostly stock and my 964 had various mods done during the recent engine rebuild: lightweight flywheel, cat and primary muffler bypasses, steel syncros, lowered suspension, RS engine mounts, RS shifter, sound pad deleted, LED headlights.

Esthetically, I like the 993 body style more. I initially thought the 964 looked clumsier with the visually heavy front chin fairings but I have since grown to like the classic lines of the 964 more.

Performance wise, I find the 964 more engaging to drive but this is probably due to the mods. Everyone uses the word 'visceral' to describe the early air-cooled driving experience and I have to say my modded 964 feels way more visceral than my 993. If I modded the 993 in a similar way, it would probably be a coin toss as to which one is more fun to drive. To that end, I recently bought a set of Fister Stage 3 mufflers to liven up my 993 experience more (haven't installed them yet).

Test drive both. Get your PPI's done where possible (I didn't do one for either of my purchases but I knew what I was dealing with before handing over my money). As others have said, you can't go wrong with either 964 or 993, if you choose the right specimen and budget wisely.

[Calspeed]

Originally Posted by Dmitry at Pelican Parts

Check out the link below for a good guide to the 993 platform. There should be other threads where comparisons are made and other details included. Best of luck on the hunt!

To all prospective 993 buyers....long


-Dmitry

Thank you!

Originally Posted by teeitup

In addition to what you learn here you should also search on Rennlist. They have both a 964 and 993 Forum and what you read on each will undoubtedly be slanted toward that model. I considered both but bought a 964 for the original body style. You can't go wrong with either.

I'm a member on Rennlist. I have been lurking around there too.

Originally Posted by Cobalt

There are as many similarities as there are differences between the two models. The tub is essentially the same with the rear suspension modification to the 993. It might just look bigger. They are both great cars. Although finding a 964 coupe is getting harder all the time. The later MY cars 92-94 C2/C4 are most desirable but they only made 1275 C2 and C4's in both tip and 5 speed for the US market. Finding one today is tricky and can be expensive.

As far as the 993 if you can find a C2S or C4S it is one to consider but again harder to find and far pricier.

I find what draws one person to a 993 is usually what a 964 lover avoids and vice a versa. The 993 is more refined has more modern amenities and they did improve a number of things that you can upgrade a 964 with. The 964 has more classic lines but the bumpers are not everyones liking. I find the 964 much more appealing to my needs I have friends who only prefer the 993.

Drive them both If you are used to a 3.2 C than the 964 is more in line of what you are familiar with. The problem as I said is very few were made and so many have been converted to long nose clones or Singers.

Great info. Thanks!

[Calspeed]

Originally Posted by kreeshp

I own both a 993 C2 and a 964 C2. Started with a 993 then got the 964 three years after owning the 993. Both were bought before the most recent run up in valuations.

My 993 is mostly stock and my 964 had various mods done during the recent engine rebuild: lightweight flywheel, cat and primary muffler bypasses, steel syncros, lowered suspension, RS engine mounts, RS shifter, sound pad deleted, LED headlights.

Esthetically, I like the 993 body style more. I initially thought the 964 looked clumsier with the visually heavy front chin fairings but I have since grown to like the classic lines of the 964 more.

Performance wise, I find the 964 more engaging to drive but this is probably due to the mods. Everyone uses the word 'visceral' to describe the early air-cooled driving experience and I have to say my modded 964 feels way more visceral than my 993. If I modded the 993 in a similar way, it would probably be a coin toss as to which one is more fun to drive. To that end, I recently bought a set of Fister Stage 3 mufflers to liven up my 993 experience more (haven't installed them yet).

Test drive both. Get your PPI's done where possible (I didn't do one for either of my purchases but I knew what I was dealing with before handing over my money). As others have said, you can't go wrong with either 964 or 993, if you choose the right specimen and budget wisely.

Thanks for the time and info. I will keep looking at hopefully land something this summer. Looking forward!

[Jim Richards]

I started with a 993 (now gone), added a 73 911E (also gone) and now I own a 964. Between the 993 and the 964, I prefer the 964, but that's just down to personal taste.

[Drisump]

I have never owned a 964 but I have had the opportunity to drive one example. What I do own is a 3.2 and a 993 C2. I would concur that coming from a 3.2....out of the box, both the 964 and the 993 seem much less visceral. Over my ownership of the 993 I have done a number of the mods that kree has done on his 964. Namely, Bilstein coil overs, lowered to Euro height, RS clutch and flywheel, RS motor mounts, RS shift linkage (Goldenrod) and SSK, Walrod bushings....and a few other minor mods designed to move the normal North American 993 driving experience into more of a traditional 911 one. I can say for sure that in my mind, my car is now a much more engaging, visceral drive. The 993 still drives in much more modern way than my 3.2 but feels like a true, more modern, direct descendant. I believe if you measured up the 3.2, 964 and 993, only wide body examples would have any real size difference. All the air cooled cars are tiny compared to a 991. Cheers and good luck....they are both great cars!

[canuck964]

As much as we enjoy the seat time driving our Porsche, I find that I spend almost as much quality time just admiring the lines of our 964/993 while it is parked.

For that reason I would suggest you get a 993 as you stated ....... "My preference is the styling of the 993."

To me the biggest difference is the front of the two cars and which headlight style you prefer.

I tried to locate photo of a 993 that is similar to my 964 in terms of the wide body look to show the difference between the two models.

993



My 964



To that end there is no right answer only personal preference.

Of course that particular 993 is worth MUCH MUCH more $$$$$ than my 964.

[911 jared]

i started with a 1987 g50 carrera coupe. Moved on into a 95' 993 c2 coupe and a 89' 964 c4 coupe.

i must say driving the 964 is favorite platform. Good luck with your decision.

[Calspeed]

Thank you so much everyone. I am feverishly studying and reading up on these models.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Calspeed

So, I am deciding between both of these models. Im hoping that you fine folks can give me some needed knowledge to help make my decision.

I'm not looking for maximum hp. Not looking for a turbo either. (cant afford it) But I am looking for longevity and overall performance. For instance, something that doesn't constantly break down like a modern Mercedes.

What are the things about each model that I need to be aware of? Do the motors typically need a rebuild after a certain amount of mileage? 100K 150K 250K?

Should I not buy a car with 100K miles on it? Both the 964 and the 933?

Is there anything specific about each model? I heard something about the IMS in the 996 models. But I am specifically looking for an air-cooled version.

My preference is the styling of the 993. But the smallness of the 964 is very attractive to me. I used to own an 85 Carrera.

Thank you for the help. Currently

My preference is the styling of the 993. But the smallness of the 964 is very attractive to me. I used to own an 85 Carrera.

Smallness?





Besides optics, you can break down the differences into a few categories
Engine Management
All 964 and US '95 993 and all RoW n/s 993 use Bosch Motronic OBD1 compliant fuel and ignition management, US '96 -98 and all 993 Turbo use Bosch Motronic OBD2 compliant fuel and ignition management. OBD2 is much more finicky wrt throwing CEL's and when it comes time to do an annual inspection for the DMV. The 993 OBD1 systems is somewhat more sophisticated than the 964 version. "96 US DME is a non flashable 1 year only item. If you ever want to do any engine tuning you want OBD1 w/user replaceable chips or "97-98 DME which can be flashed by a tuner.

Brakes and Suspension
front suspension is pretty much the same on 964/993, The big difference here is ally wheel carriers on 993 vs iron on 964. The rear suspension of 993 is much more sophisticated and much more expensive to modify. 993 has more room for wider tires and also has a more robust braking system w/ better options for upgrades.

both 964 and 993 have multiple upgrade options for track or other use, often the same options but not always

[Calspeed]

Thank you Bill. I suppose that the sizes are very similar. I assumed that the 964 was much narrower.

Your post has helped me tremendously.

[Derek911]

This is all about personal preference. Although very similar in many ways, they look completely different. The fact that Pelican lumps the 964 and 993 together in one forum proves the similarities, yet I find that each car exudes a different style. I think the 964 is the platform that people mod more. The California car culture is hot on 964's at the moment. Younger people are attracted to the 964 styling, where 993 owners will argue that the 993, mechanically, is the best and last of the air cooled Porsche. Again, one of these cars has to speak to you more than the other.

[Calspeed]

Originally Posted by Derek911

This is all about personal preference. Although very similar in many ways, they look completely different. The fact that Pelican lumps the 964 and 993 together in one forum proves the similarities, yet I find that each car exudes a different style. I think the 964 is the platform that people mod more. The California car culture is hot on 964's at the moment. Younger people are attracted to the 964 styling, where 993 owners will argue that the 993, mechanically, is the best and last of the air cooled Porsche. Again, one of these cars has to speak to you more than the other.

Yes, good points and i agree. One model does speak to me more than the other. I'm still a minimum of two months from purchase. But, damn my browsers burning up with Porsche research.

Working on a deal now to sell my current classic MB.

[kreeshp]

Originally Posted by Derek911

I think the 964 is the platform that people mod more. The California car culture is hot on 964's at the moment.

964's used to be valued significantly lower than 993's; there was a time recently that you could buy decent 964's for below $20,000. (As an example, I bought my own 964 for around $15k circa 2013.) This made the price of entry much lower and made them more accessible candidates to resto-modify than 993's which never dipped below $25k - $35k when they were at their lowest.

IMHO, their relative valuations influenced which one got modded more than the styling or performance. Had 993's entered 964 territory price-wise, I suspect we'd be seeing a lot more 993's modded.

[porterdog]

Originally Posted by kreeshp

964's used to be valued significantly lower than 993's; there was a time recently that you could buy decent 964's for below $20,000. (As an example, I bought my own 964 for around $15k circa 2013.) This made the price of entry much lower and made them more accessible candidates to resto-modify than 993's which never dipped below $25k - $35k when they were at their lowest.

IMHO, their relative valuations influenced which one got modded more than the styling or performance. Had 993's entered 964 territory price-wise, I suspect we'd be seeing a lot more 993's modded.

Agree. 964s were a lot more accessible for a while.

[drb930]

While its hard to add to what has already been said...
I currently have both 964 C2 & 993 C2S.

The feeling of how the 964 bobbles over the road & bumps feels much more early 911 to me as it is still on trailing arms in the rear.
The 993 are so planted in the rear that it transforms the feeling of the car from early 911 to a more modern driving experience than the 964.
If you look back to the 993, through 996 & 997 & then forward now to the 991 the basic suspension "design" is the same although much more refined.

The 964 is the same chassis as the 993 except for the rear suspension and bonded glass which brought the stiffness of the chassis up another 20%.

I really like the balance of the 964 vs a G-body car as even stock 964 can handle much more predictably than a G-body... as the 964 has a much better front suspension than G-body and redesigned rear trailing arm suspension plus all 4 corners on coilovers from the factory.

You can't go wrong with either... I think 964 values might surpass 993 as 964 were the bastard child when they were new and are just now being appreciated yet many were unloved, turned into race cars, and now Singer's ect. so the numbers are becoming lower for basic stock examples.

I will say it is very frustrating the build quality of both compared to the last of the G-body's circa about 1988. You can start to see Toyota's influence starting at that point. The use of plastic in both 964 & 993 is terrible compared to the hand-built's up to G-body.
Although 996 & 997 are worse in the use of plastic!

[hda]

This is a great post and it's fantastic to read the feedback from various owners!

I am awaiting to receive (tomorrow) my first 911. It's a 1992 964 Carrera 2 Manual.
To me the 964 is THE 911 and although I like the wide ass of a 997S I feel that the 964 is, as written by many, the "bastard child" of the Porsche family.

I hope she will not disappoint me from a handling point of view.

As you read I am also very close to purchase a 1996 993 C2 Manual, should close Monday night.
No I didn't win the lottery, I just thought I don't want my trading bank to lose my money, I want to do it myself!

I previously owned a 1992 NSX, sold in December.

Cheers,
HDA