PCA is putting some of th liability onto the driver and the Seat belt manufacturer by making us follow the manufacturers instruction. As long as you keep your installation documentation for your belts you should pass if you mounted them by how they state.. But that does'nt mean it will be completely safe or the best way to do it ..

Thanks for the opinions. I will definitely continue to study this issue. For now, my harness is mounted per the instructions, and has passed annual tech inspection with the sanctioning body I'll be racing with. It also seems to me to be the most effective mounting method given the design of the harness, and the mounting points available. When I look closely at my setup, it seems like running the two sub belts through the sub hole in the seat would be a problem due to the 't-bar" connection at the buckle, which spreads the sub belts apart enough to make fitting them into the sub hole awkward.

http://www.schrothracing.com/ximg/1602/Profi_II_6H.jpg

Currently, the "t-bar" effectively aims the belts comfortably under my thighs, and out the lap belt holes, like the instructions suggest. I suppose the preferred method most here are suggesting would require me to discard the "t-bar" and replace it with a narrower mount point that allows the two sub belts to run close together as they go through the sub hole and then spread apart again to reach two more mounting eyes. Also, the buckle does not ride up onto my belly, because it is pulled downward by my body weight resting on top of the sub belts. The fit feels tighter and more comfortable than my five point belts did. I also don't see the difference between routing the subs through the seat or to the lap belt points. In the end, both methods keep the driver from submarining. Routing the subs under your thighs protects the jewels a little better as well.

Is there evidence or experience that shows a safety problem with sitting on the belts?

if you are in an "event" your body weight will be tossed around like it is nothing. Seems to me that the lap would then ride up if you bounce up, no?

I stick by my opinon. No sitting on subs...they go down through the seat and to the floor.

No riding up so far. The angle that the belts go through the lap belt holes to the mount point seems to be steep enough to prevent that. Is there some specific evidence of a known safety issue, or just conjecture? I'd like to know before I spend money on changing the sub straps so they'll go through the sub hole in my race seat.

Whoa, folks!!! Ten cuidado!

I have been using the internet to share p-car information since around '93 or '94. Even before Porschefans.. Porschelist... et cetera.

I remember at various times "internet folklore" about how belts could be mounted with stock seats... sitting on subs and the like. I even remember admonishing a well-know driving book author and former PCA region Chief Instructor after he convinced the region to adopt a set of mounting requirements based simply on something he read on the internet. Shameful.

There ae many great manufacturers of belt systems. These include, but are not limited to Sabelt, Simpson, Crow, G-Force and Schroth. I think most groups, like PCA, want you to follow the manufacturers guidelines. I think one should not be shy about asking them about how to deal with subs, not a bunch of people on the net. Some of them don't provide specifics for number of reasons. But it seems to me, they should be your first source.

I currently use the Schroth hybrid system for the driver and a set of FIA-rated G Force belts when I carry a passenger. The former provide detailed instructions. US Importer of Schroth is HMS Motorsports, and that is where I bought the belts. Joe Marko is the man there, and he works with SCCA, NASA, BMWCCA, PCA and even NASCAR. Yes they use Schroth in NASCAR. WHen I have questions, I just pick up the phone and call Joe, or I send him an e-mail. If you have questions about Schroth, that is a good approach. If you use something else, contact the manufacturer. If that route does not pan out, talk to professionals.. not a bunch of guys and gals on the internet.

- Mike

I think I said that in my earlier post Mike,, Follow the manufacturers instructions and you have the best source..

You did.. I was just reinforcing. Plus letting the folks know that if they use Schroth, they should access HMS/Joe if they need help. They/he are a great resource.

I once contacted Joe because the instructions for my hybrid set were a little ambigous due to poor German to English translation. The result was a set of subs that got damaged. I caught the issue when they subs were partway worn through. They would have failed in an accident.

- mm

ZOANAS

If you were to run the subs under the seat, will there be any clearance/mounting issues because of the DME brain that resides under the seat?

Parachute style is really formula style. This means cockpits where the seat is integral to the cockpit and drivers are reclined. Reclining changes the crash dynamic. People have tried to "dual use" streetcars with stock seats and avoid 5th point subs going over the front of the cushion by using 6pt parachute harness set-ups. While this works who know what that will really do in a crash. A car on the track means you mentally need to be able to write the car off. To me that means if you need extra holes to mount subs properly then do it or don't track it. Be careful to mount the subs with at least a large washer but remember that to some like me that is not adequate but many manufacterers think it is o.k.. Think for yourself...Try jacking your 3000lbs car up from the proposed sub point. If you get a big dent you need to reinforce this area. A 20g crash yields like 3000lbs on the subs. When belts come loose and slack during crashes you get hurt and can die.

No, ironically, I moved the DME behind the seat. I have the eye bolts that came in the package, and will most likely install them under the seat, and then I will have the option of either method.

Mike, I'll talk to you about it at the track Saturday for sure.

10-4. I have a bunch of extra mounting hardware if you want some.

Thanks Mike, I have all the hardware. It shouldn't take 20 minutes to drill the holes and run the belts through the sub hole.

ZOANAS,

If you don't mind, could you post some pictures and any additional info as to how/where you decided to drill/install the subs? Thanks in advance.

Sure thing. I'll be doing it all tomorrow, so I'll post pix then.

OK, removed the seat:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1178337851.jpg


Decided to simply replace the rear seat bracket mount bolts with eyes to mount the sub belts to:

Works like a charm, and I like the fit better. Thanks for the "push".
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1178337924.jpg

It's a little aft, but better than to the sides. Don't forget to put cotter pins into the clips.

Thanks, Don. I agree, I'll likely add new holes further forward. I overlooked the 20 degree angle they ask for in the install instructions, so I'll fix that.