6 point harness - anyone using lap mounts for subs?

[SoCal70RSR]

Is this acceptable in PCA events?

I've read several threads, but I've only found that SCCA allows it and some people have said PCA allows them too...but it appears it's speculation based on their best attempt on understanding the PCA rules. Anyone with first hand experience? Will the PCA allow you to mount the sub straps on the same location as the lap belts? Both lap/sub would feed through the same opening on the side of the seat. You would basically sit on the sub belts as they go up on the crotch area. Any help is much appreciated.

[jester911]

I believe the new rule the PCA is adopting for 2008 is that the seats must have anti-sub belt holes in the seats from the factory they were made. No rerouting belts and no making holes in seats that did not come that way.

So what this means is either stock belts with stock seats or racing harnesses with race seats. Do search on this forum and I think you will find one of the head guys from PCA posting this recently.

[930yyc]

Interpretation of the rules aside if allowed on track it is quite workable in an '86 911 Carrera with stock power seats minus the seatback knobs.

A bracket was added to the inboard lapbelt which has a widened opening to hold the two belt clips.

Touring around streets, the 6 points stay buckled up behind the driver and passenger seat.

Workable. Roll cage recommended.

[ZOA NOM]

I run my six point Schroth lap belts and subs to the same mounting ring, and sit on the subs. It works pretty good. I don't really notice any difference from the previous five point that mounted under the seat. It passed tech with NASA.

[nostatic]

i wouldn't consder it, but that's just me...I think multiple belts to a single mount (failure) point is a bad idea.

[ZOA NOM]

interesting, I hadn't considered it a problem. I did it to avoid drilling two more holes into the floor. I'll investigate further and change it if it presents a safety concern.

[nostatic]

from the brey-krause site:

Some drivers choose to use a Y belt attached to the inside and outside lap belt mounts and sit on the belt. For recreational driving this type of installation works well with factory seats but it is no substitute for a race seat and traditional installation.

[Don Plumley]

I wouldn't (and didn't) use it parachute style. It's just two holes in the pan. I even relocated my DME to get them in the right spot.

Don

[ZOA NOM]

I'll check it out, thanks.

[ZOA NOM]

From the Schroth website:

The anti-submarining strap routing over the upper thighs and attachment to the shoulder belt latches with the buckle in between, does not provide a direct load path from the shoulder belts down to the anti-submarining strap anchor points. The indirect routing requires a type of preloading of the anti-submarining straps during a frontal impact. This is achieved by sitting on the anti-submarining straps, routing them rearwards and attaching them in the region near or on the lap belt anchorages.

This would be in compliance with the manufacturer's instructions, yet against the PCA rule which requires that no two belts be attached at one mount. Quandry continues.

FWIW, I purchased new Schroth belts from IO Port Racing and they advised me regarding the installation. One of the guys there does tech for local NASA events.

[Don Plumley]

This is from the Competition Manual:

PROFI 6-POINT AND HYBRID MODELS
• Anti-submarining strap routing shall be vertical down from the groin, preferably approximately 20° back.
• Anchor points shall be approximately 100 mm [4”] lateral apart from each other. In case of a a low seating position (e.g. in open wheel race
cars), this separation may be reduced since the anchor points are closer to the thighs.

Your Text seems to be for the Profi F model.

There's also a picture on page 28 that shows not running them Parachute style.

[jester911]

The original question here was about what the PCA allows.
Here is the new mandate.


New Harness Standard for PCA DE Events

Just posted by PCA National DE Committee Chairman Pete Tremper on Rennlist

February 5, 2007
Dear National Staff and Region Presidents,

The purpose of this email is to inform you of a change in the Driver’s Education National Standards regarding the use of safety harnesses which will become effective on Jan.1, 2008. The current “Equal Restraint” Standard states that both the student and instructor shall have the same restraint system.

The problem with this Standard is that it does not define the complete system, in terms of the type of seat to be used with a 5 or 6 point harness. The new “Harness” Standard (See below) is written to compliment the “Equal Restraint” Standard and will go into effect January 1, 2008, but a region may adopt the standard earlier.

The new standard states that if a harness system is installed, it must be used in conjunction with a seat with manufacturer supplied routing holes for the shoulder and anti-submarine belts. These routing holes insure that the belts will remain in place when needed. A one piece seat is recommended but not required for it may interfere with the operation of the OEM three piece belt required for street application.

Thank you for your help in implementing this new standard. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me.

Pete Tremper
National DE Committee Chairman
Tremper9146@aol.com
(O)215.539.6379
(H)856.881.7049

Harness Standard
revised 1/22/07

Harness Systems:

If the participant chooses to install a 5/6 point driving harness (four point systems are not safe and therefore not allowed) several changes to the automobile must be made to create a safe occupant restraint system. Harnesses must include an antisubmarine strap and be mounted in an approved manner consistent with the manufacturer’s instructions. The Harness system must be used in conjunction with a seat which has the supplied routing holes for the shoulder and anti-submarine belts. All pieces of the restraint system must be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.

This means that a seat is required to have the proper routing holes for the harness as supplied by the seat manufacturer for the shoulder, lap and anti-submarine straps. The shoulder straps should be mounted at 90 degrees to the axis of your spine or at most 40 degrees down from horizontal. Because the addition of the harness system means that the occupants are fastened upright in the vehicle, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage is strongly encouraged to complete the SYSTEM. The use of one without the other may result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. Due to UV degradation and wear the harness webbing must be replaced every five years

I personally don't see a lot of room for interpretation. If the seat is required to have sub belt holes then this rules out sitting on the belts.
It seems pretty clear to me.
IMHO anti-submarine belts were never designed to be sat on.
It simply is compromising the system. That isn't to say that it isn't allowed in many cases.


Personally if I was going to the trouble of installing harnesses as safety equipment (which I am currently) I would install it properly.

Just my 0.3

[Porsche virgin]

These rules sound like they were written by lawyers, not safety experts.

[cstreit]

Huh. Other than the single-point-of-failure issue I'm wondering if sitting on the sub-belts allows you enough downward tension to keep the lap-belts pulled down as low on your hips as possible?

I've got to believe they wouldn't because if you REALLY tighten your shoulder belts up, it would tend to pull the lap-belt/cam assembly up over your hips and onto your belly.

[nostatic]

the physics is just wrong wrt sitting on them. The function is to keep the lap belt low. You want the force of the sub to be in as direct opposition as possible to the lap sliding up towards your midsection...that would be straight down, through a hole in the seat, and down to the pan.

[SoCal70RSR]

If PCA states the following:

"Harnesses must include an antisubmarine strap and be mounted in an approved manner consistent with the manufacturer’s instructions. "

And the schrotch manufacturer says this:

"This is achieved by sitting on the anti-submarining straps, routing them rearwards and attaching them in the region near or on the lap belt anchorages."

What's a person to do? If we follow the manurfacturer's instructions than we should be in compliance with the PCA... right??

[nostatic]

You should do whatever you feel comfortable with. No way I would sit on the sub and mount it back. But it's your car and your safetly, not mine.

[SoCal70RSR]

Originally posted by nostatic
You should do whatever you feel comfortable with. No way I would sit on the sub and mount it back. But it's your car and your safetly, not mine.

You're right, I typically do whatever I want with my car. But that's not the issue, there's quite a few people, including myself, who are confused about the rules and manufacturer's instructions. Just trying to shed some light and hope to get some guidance that'll satisfy the PCA rules, manufuacturer's instructions and hopefully not kill yourself in the process.

[nostatic]

Scroth seems to be an outlyer in their suggestion to mount to the lap belt mount points. Schroth also sells 4 point belts which I think are more dangerous than 3 points.

There is a reason that race seats have a slot in the bottom. I don't think it's for looks. I don't know of any sanctioning body that would dq your car for having a proper race seat and a sub properly bolted to the floor under the seat. It strikes me that the parachute style use is a workaround for a seat that isn't slotted. I used to have that issue and instead ran the sub up over the front of the seat. Not optimal, but better than nothing. But once I got more serious about racing, I went to a more appropriate setup.

[Don Plumley]

Originally posted by SoCal70RSR

And the schrotch manufacturer says this:

"This is achieved by sitting on the anti-submarining straps, routing them rearwards and attaching them in the region near or on the lap belt anchorages."

What's a person to do? If we follow the manurfacturer's instructions than we should be in compliance with the PCA... right??

In my albeit quick read of this, I did not think this was in reference to their competition line. They are very clear in the manual about how to mount the Profi harness through the substrap hole.