What good is handling in corners if you always get passed on the straights?
 

If anybody watched the Bathurst 12 Hour race last weekend, this is exactly what the Audi guys were saying. They were faster on the top of the hill [curvy sections]. The Mercs, McClaren, Bentley's, and GTR would then blow by them on the long straight. The "balance of performance" was there with roughly equivalent lap times when qualifying, but in race conditions they said they didn't have much of a chance to win. Of course they weren't there to have fun, they were there to win.

Chad
That was great, having owned a 65 vette for many years, before it was stolen, it was great to see the two of you playing your strengths and weaknesses.

I think all of this back and forth has well established a better driver almost always beat a "faster" car. That being said, hp ain't everything. The OP showed a 1960s muscle car vs. a Porsche. The Firebird had better show up with TONS more hp because a car like that was never designed to compete on a road course. A nose-heavy brick with a solid rear end and non-boxed frame is probably doing quite a bit of flexing trying to negotiate those corners. And if handling doesn't matter, look at the giant-killers Lotus and Porsche of the 1950s and 60s beating Ferraris and Jags.

HP doesn't mean too much if you can't use it. How effectively is that getting to the ground? TBD or LSD used? Center of gravity, wheel/tire size, etc.? If traction doesn't matter, then what about Audi in the early 80s or Mitsubishi and Subaru in the early 2000s?

This is one of my favorite examples, EVO vs. Z car. On paper the Z is lighter, more hp, and has better aero...but the EVO is quicker due to better traction and handling.

Sports Car Comparison - 2011 Nissan 370Z vs. 2011 Mitsubishi Lancer Evo GSR

And one of my favorite "better driver" examples, he makes it look soooo easy. The dude is fearless:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSJ-HzNWJGM

jadewombat~ that last one is very similar to this one of Sabine Schmitz in a VLN race. She knows the track and car so well, and knows no fear, even in a light rain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufzdL1JaEKM

To turn the OP's question on its head:

What good is HP, if you always get passed in the tight sections?

--DD

I wish I could find some youtube videos of the original Trans Am race series when the two classes ran together and the little Porsches in the lower class regularly harassed the bigger cars in the premier class.

I have a 211HP 2.5L short stroke, single plug, 46mm PMO's. My car weighs ~2100 pounds. I'm not sure what those muscle cars weigh.

Yup, she's a great one. I've loved the van video for years.

In the arms-race of hp where american V8s are achieving higher and higher hp numbers, again, it's important to understand useable power. My buddy's Datsun 280 with an LS crate motor swap and limited-slip, he spins out near 10:00. I would've probably done the same thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAz3KXl2IfA&feature=youtu.be

That's a dubious statement. Based on the videos posted, passing in the curves in the exception, not the rule. It is very hard to pass in the curves.
The smaller generally catches up, but rarely passes. He is just stuck behind. And on the case the smaller does pass, he often gets passed right back on the next straight.

Based on the evidence offered here, it's evident that power trumps weight, which is probably why pro drivers use huge HP, and not 50hp featherweight go-karts.
The post below basically confirmed all this from a professional point of view:

Technically, this is incorrect also. It all comes down to the track configuration.

Very true. I can pass and stay ahead of many varieties of Cup Cars at Sears Point with my race car. With a 150 to 200 HP deficit I am not passing them on the straights! Thunderhill, on the other hand, is much more difficult. I can run similar lap times but passing and making it stick is much more of a challenge. Horsepower matters more at Thunderhill than it does at Sears Point.

Chad
As you mentioned the type track has a lot to do with it and it's power to weight not horsepower. Then it's stay in the other guys mirrors, look for his weak point and be ready to pounce.

No more dubious than the original statement. The thing is, if you are "always" getting passed, the problem is almost certainly not with the car...

--DD

Sugarwood, in races with cars of equal horsepower, most of the passing is done in the braking zone before the corner.

This is equally effective for small cars attacking high hp cars, as well as any car of equal hp. It comes down to race-craft.

All things begin equal, HP just gives an advantage to the lesser skilled driver.

If you want to pick the best mix of hp and weight, as has been said, a big factor will be knowing which tracks you will run at.

Lemans and Daytona both reward big hp due to top speed more than acceleration.

Other tracks like the old formula one track at St. Jovite that I drive on rewards perfect lines more than hp, because so much of the track is the twists where you can't take advantage of any hp advantage, and, in a race, a good under hp driver would time the pass and track position to take away the high hp driver's drive.

Likewise the high hp driver would try to do the same to take away the lower hp driver's momentum.

What I find sad for professional racing is that at one time, the race organization used to leave it up to the teams to decide how to go fast. Now with balance of performance rules, they keep it so close that it is rare that you will ever see these old underdog battles.

The reason that teams like Shelby and Pensky opted for big truck engines back on the day was that they were more likely to last to the end in endurance races. For sprint races smaller engines gave the advantage of lighter weight and sometimes at lower hp, but the driver and engine had to work a lot harder.

Then there is the other factor of power to weight.
Big hp in a heavy car vs. lower hp in a lighter car, but both with the same percentage of power to weight is a different variable again.

I will agree with you that it is easier to go fast with a high hp car, but I will also state that you don't learn much.

When I road raced motorcycles I started with a relatively high hp 4 cylinder 500cc two stroke.
I was great at out accelerating and out braking the competition.

It wasn't until a few years later when I did an 8 hour endurance race on light a 600cc single cylinder bike against the higher hp super bikes on a twisty Blackhawk farms circuit that I actually learned to go fast.

This makes my eye twitch a bit.
F=MA
A=F/M
acceleration=force/mass
torque is a twisting force that causes rotation
hp is calculated from torque, so for now lets ignore HP given hp is calculated based on torque.
so
A=torque/mass

so, a 2000lbs 911 with 200lbs-ft torque will accelerate at...
A=200/2000= 0.1 (lets not worry about units)

Now, lets look at a 4000lbs, 400lbs-ft Mustang.
A=400/4000=0.1

So more torque will not accelerate faster (all other factors equal).
What you need to look at is power to weight. Both above cars have an identical power to weight, so identical acceleration.

Now, nothing is quite this simple. gearing, drag, lateral grip, breaking, car setup, driver, tires, gears... etc. all play into it. Some tracks also have corners that are far more open to allowing a pass, and very limited straights.

Again, where I go, handling cars, not power cars, rein supreme. Mind you, a handling/cornering being the same, the car with more power will win. But than this is no news.

The Shelby Daytona and the Ford GT40 were famous for this. Their huge displacement engines made so much torque that they could keep in higher gears, and keep revs down. This reduced stress on the engine, and also saved on fuel, despite the displacement. The smaller, lighter low displacement Ferraris needed to rev for thier power, reducing durability, and increasing fuel consumption. Kind of like when Top gear compared a prius on the track to a e90 M3. The prius went as fast as it could and the M3 just matched speed. The Prius used more fuel. The v8 hardly broke a sweat. Similar strategy with the Daytona and GT40. Match the pace of the Ferraris and conserve.

In modern racing, to win you need cornering/handling, and power.

Yup. In some of the videos where the car walks (runs) away on the straights, you know they are playing with WAAAAYYY more hp than the other car. The "underpowered" car that is nipping at their bumper and struggling to get by, probably has a much less advantageous power to weight ratio. Would be interesting to see numbers.

Mark Donahue, who raced the 917-30, was once asked how much hp is enough. His response was something to the effect of "I have enough hp when I can spin my wheels from corner exit to corner entry on the straights."

What is super cool about the 911, and a small part of why why many of us here love them at the track, is that they tend to punch above their weight when driven well. The rear engine both allows later braking, and earlier power on after the throttle. As demonstrated in some of the videos, this allows the car to "punch above it's weight (power)".

Thats a great write up

Here is one of my favourite videos.

At the beginning he dices with a similar car to the one he is driving but with obviously more power (or maybe he is just running amor defensive line and not getting as good a run off the corners due to the heat behind??) . You can see the give and take.

After the midway point of the video things get interesting. (would have been even more interesting if there was a rearward facing camera to see the pressure he was under from behind as he was trying to both drive defensively yet aggressively enough to get the car ahead).

Described as Patrick Long in a car 1/2 the horsepower of the 935s he dices towards the end.
(that twice the hp, TWICE! so Long's 300 hp vs. their 600hp. or maybe 350hp vs. 700hp???)


I'll go out on a limb and suggest that Long has more skill while those 935 drivers as well as that duck tailed RSR at the beginning all have more hp.

Professional driver vs. not professional drivers.

EDIT: I just realized that this is a different video. I'll post a link if I find the one form 2015 that I meant to post

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PTaJ62xW8Jk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Let's not forget that most of those guys are out there to have their car seen and not drive them anywhere near its potential. Patrick, on the other hand, is able to drive the car close to its potential without undue risk.

It's kind of like watching Canepa be a crazy man and pass all the cars in his races except for Patrick is not crazy.

I'll bet that they use all of the gas pedal though ;)

Maybe. But what is the boost set to? Probably a very conservative BAR setting. Look how easy most of them are taking it in the corners. It looks like a Sunday drive!

Your right. I posted the wrong video.

I'll see if I can find the other all 911 race video in that 3.0 from 2015.

I'm not the one racing. I was referring to the videos. I observed, "Watch him chase the Firebird. It's the same pattern. Firebird leaves him in the dust in the straight. 911 then catches up in the corner, but can never pass. It seems impossible to pass in the turns. So, he always stays behind and never passes. " And that is exactly what happens in the video. Dubious how?

Right, but I'm not talking about equal horsepower.

The point of this conversation was the video evidence that big horsepower can outperform smaller and lighter cars.
They pass in the straights, and it's very hard to overtake them in the curve. And if they do, they pass again in the very next straight.

I'm not talking about reliability, or formulas, or what is more engaging, or what is more skilled.
I am talking about what goes around the circle the fastest.

You know what I see in the videos?
Once the little car gets passed, it has a nice view of the muscle car's ass for the rest of the race!
Maybe you see something different.

I've learned that it's empirically disingenuous to parrot, "Muscle cars are bloated pigs, they handle like crap, they only good are for straight lines."
Next time someone pulls out these dubious cliches, I'm now going to refer back to videos such as the white '68 Firebird making minced meat of the 911.
Or the '65 Mustang beating the Mini. Or the black '65 'Vette leaving the 911 in the dust (until the driver error)

If you want to post videos of light underpowered cars beating V8 muscle car beasts (passing and staying in the lead), I am happy to watch them.
Otherwise, I find myself repeating myself, so that means it's time bow out of this one. Thank you for the discussion!

You must be confusing me with someone else.

I've posted videos of entertaining battles. I personally don;t have a preference for one type of vehicle over another. What I have learned is that it is not about what I want the car to do, but rather I have to drive a car the way that it wants to be driven.

A good driver in a muscle car will alter their lines to take advantage of hp.
A good driver in a less powerful car will alter their lines to maintain momentum.

That should be the lesson here. Both can be fun and both can win, depending on the track or the driver.

Your empirical evidence is but a small sampling.

Having read the thread from start to finish, it seems to me the OP had his mind made up before he even started the thread. The videos express to me that the muscle cars are in fact "pigs" that only go in a straight line well. Yes, they can corner, but not well. To me that just seems like a lazy and unskilled way to get around the track. The other thing the videos prove to me is that the better driver almost always comes out in front. Passing in a straight just doesn't seem to be very rewarding since you know in your own mind that it's only because you have the power. We are all amateurs learning how to be better. Why cheat yourself of that?

A video sample of 1 may be useful in internet battles...

Yes, it is clearly easier to drive high HP cars (relatively) fast, even if they are pig, and don't corner very well. So for the lesser skilled driver, horsepower matters relatively more than handling, in that it easy to plant your foot, but harder to leverage more cornering and braking ability. That is the case in the video you reference, to your point. However, take the exact same cars, and put two highly skilled drivers in, and the outcome may well be very different.

What I think you can't appreciate until you gain some racing experience yourself, is just how much the car's characteristics are dwarfed by driver skill. Put Patrick Long in an 80 HP shifter cart, and your average Joe in a 800 HP Firebird, and Patrick Long is going to win everywhere except (maybe) a drag strip, and by a mile on tighter tracks.

So the real answer is, "it depends". Many factors play in here, and to a larger degree than I think you'd like to admit.

That's the understatement of the day!

,and it applies to ANY cars characteristics. It shows no preference.

Roadrace courses of any type are great neutralizers of mechanical advantage

Here is a good one from last year's Road America Club Race. The 993 was a tube frame fabcar, and it was unbelievably fast. On the other hand, Cory Friedman is one of the best amateur racers out there.
Cory's 997 RSR is a blindingly fast car, but the Fabcar was in another league. On the straights :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzGBY1wGlCM

Thats an exciting battle.

Locally where our grids are smaller, club racing his bracket racing. Cars are classed by lap times, and big muscle car regularly do battle with small nimble cars at tracks like Mosport.

There are some epic battles and on any given day one type of car or another will win depending on a variety of factors including traffic, track conditions, driver's mental state etc.

The same cars keep coming back because any one has a chance to win, though win in different ways.

But, to the original question: What good is handling if you always get passed in the straights.
If it is "ALWAYS" then I guess the good of handling is that you can keep up in a less powerful car.

The optimism is that race craft will get you in front once in a while, but if NEVER, then I suppose it is only for the entertainment factor if not the glory.

If on the other hand the question is What good is handling if you SOMETIMES get passed in the straights. then I suppose there is more at stake and a reason to be optimistic and the answer is no different if the question is What good is hp if you SOMETIMES get passed anywhere other than on the straights.;)

The last line is a great quote as well.

Maximizing handling *is* harder, but also ultimately more rewarding.

Good video, Quinlan. Good example of the less powerful car winning.

sugarwood,

I think you need to stop referring to the original video that started all this. The driver in that 911 is NOT driving that car to it's potential (or its not set up all that well) to have a chance at passing that Firebird. Those of us who recognize the finer details of what's going on in that video can clearly see the 911 is giving up TONS of time by not braking well and not having good racecraft. I posted what I felt was a good video to demonstrate the 3.0 RSR 911s at Road Atlanta showing how they can overcome the massive power of the Mustang. But you continue to dwell on HP being king above all else despite those Road Atlanta 911s proving otherwise?

If you just care about which car turns the fastest lap? Well that's fine. But that's not what determines who wins the race in actual racing. Ignore the race enviro influences all you want but I say you can't do that in this case because you're using a video of RACING, not just two cars chasing each other, to justify your argument. Racing is hugely about who can managing traffic the best and who has better racecraft. No offense intended, but if you haven't raced, you can't fully appreciate that.

Sterling Doc Eric said a lot of what I was going to say and he can say it much better since he’s much more accomplished in racing than I. I agree that if there's a disparity in driver skill, which is often the case (especially in DE events, which makes me cringe when people make comparisons there) in these situations, that plays a huge factor in who's faster. HUGE HUGE HUGE.

Here’s another comparo. My mentor cstreit used to race a 1970 911 widebody with a 3.3L 250 hp engine, 2200 lbs as raced. Our race group also races with the American Iron and Super Unlimited + Super Touring classes. In SU there used to be two brothers Sweers with really nice full-on racing Vipers with mega horsepower. At least 500 hp. At Autobahn South course (2.1 miles with a ¼ mile long back straight) Chris was occasionally faster than the Vipers.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1455828841.jpg

How could he do that? Nimble, fast car driven by an excellent driver who has great racecraft and great traffic management. I don't have a video of them racing against each other because the race is a split start with three different classes/waves of cars. Wave 1 is SU and American Iron, wave 2 is Camaro Mustang Challenge and Factory Five Roadster (Cobra replica), wave 3 is GTS with BMW & Porsche. So in this case a fast guy like Chris in GTS has to work his way thru a lot of traffic during the race.

Trust me, the guy could host a clinic on managing traffic. Watch him get by four cars with ease from T6 to T8 at 18:05 and start watching the rearview mirror for his white car coming up fast at 17:40. I started the video a minute earlier at 16:40 so you can get a feel for the track layout

https://vimeo.com/groups/63643/videos/14950324#t=1000s

Getting around the track fast is all about split second decisions, anticipation and virtually no hesitation. Car handling & power is certainly important. But if you can’t manage the car well, nor traffic well, you’re giving away several precious seconds per lap. Every split second absolutely positively counts and any time wasted farting around with navigating the corners & traffic is to your competition’s advantage.

That’s a big part of why that guy in the 911 chasing the Firebird can’t pass him. He’s not using the advantage of the 911’s braking and he’s apprehensive. So any opportunity he has to pass the Firebird is lost, despite the fact that he’ll get passed back if the Firebird remains close. If the 911 could drive better to get past the Firebird, and encounter traffic ahead soon after that slows the Firebird’s progress back to him, that’s his best chance to beat the Firebird. You may think that’s lame. But that’s actual racing.

No disrespect to Cory Friedman but that Fabcar had him covered if Fabcar would hit some marks consistently. Fabcar's occasional bad approach to T8 is absolutely killing him and at exactly the wrong location because its right before the carousel and kink where Friedman is much faster. When the Fabcar passes Friedman back, Fabcar then takes such bad angles to the next corner(s), turning in early and braking to the apex, to let Friedman close in. At one point after he gets away from Friedman after the kink, he takes a terrible trajectory into Canada Corner that devastates his entry & exit which lets Friedman immensely close the gap right back.

At 5:13 onward, the Fabcar should be gone see ya later this battle is over. But he appears to blow T5 at the bottom of the hill very badly and his turn in point starts in the middle of the track? That was hugely critical bad. T5 is a very late apex and if you blow the entry you absolutely kill your exit speed. Then he kinda turns in early for T6 at the top of the hill which helps Freidman again. T7 for Fabcar is OK, but Friedman is slightly faster there. Fabcar then appears to mirror-drive his line into T8 for fear of being divebombed by Friedman? So he brakes from the middle of the track all the way down to the apex and Friedman gladly takes that red carpet welcome to his strong part of the track at the carousel. Buh bye.........

What's also noteworthy here is Friedman basically drives like a robot. Makes virtually no errors & makes outside passes look like child's play. If you wanna be able to pass someone on the track, at some point you gotta man up and go around the outside. He who passes someone on the outside of the carousel at Road America has mucho bravery!

This is one of my favorite videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrePIvGjRes

At the beginning, the 911 is about a second behind the white Ford Falcon and loses a bunch of distance in the next two straights. Then, at :45, the 911 carries so much speed through the uphill turn he catches the Falcon at the top of the hill. He then holds that advantage all the way down the straight. And that's a long, long straight.

We can guess what's in the Falcon...400hp from a vintage 289? I dunno but I bet it's more HP than the 2 liter 911 which also has no flares, no tail and 5 inch wide treaded tires.

You might say the Falcon had an error in that turn and maybe so. But he finished that session with a best of 3:10, while that video is a 3:04 or so and I think the timesheet indicated a best of 3:02 for the 911.

Right around 2:00, the 911 starts closing on an E Type. Same story, and again he gets the pass done coming onto the straight with less horsepower because he carried more speed through the turns.

The E Type pass is aggressive and shows the good guys will not remain behind a slower car for very long. They work their advantage and find a way by.

Todd, nice video to illustrate the point, but just one minor quibble...

I think the HP disparity is not that great in this example.

The Falcon doesn't cartoonishly take off in the straights like a cartoon, as in the other videos.
It seems the 911 has 90% of the pull in the straights, and mostly keeps pace in the straights.
You can see this from :09 to :19

Also, the Falcon's brake lights turn on in the straight at :51, which is why the 911 passes.

An extra 50-100 horsepower isn't enough to take off cartoonishly if the chase car is carrying any sort of momentum

This is why first time track drivers with big powerful cars come away humbled after their first track experience. That continues until they stop chasing more power and start recognizing the importance of suspension tires and skill

Put all that together with big power though and you become hard to pass

Sugar wood, your observation of the falcon break lights tells me you are finally starting to see what it's all about

Yes, I'm being a little difficult, but I definitely grok the idea of much later braking with a lighter car.
It is something I will be mindful of if I do another DE (though I still would opt for the muscle car if I was racing for pink slips)

Not only later, but often times less, which means the power you do have can be used longer, and less of the results of that power gets scrubbed off so you can keep it for the next straight.

Finally....

Always a bit of a giggle to drive around a C6 Z06 or a 4.0L GT3 RSR in a humble 2.5L Boxster with decent tires. That doesn't happen often at Fontana Speedway or Laguna Seca, but tighter, more technical tracks it is not uncommon. HP is just one piece of the pie.

And if you really want to have fun with the high HP guys, race them in the rain:

https://vimeo.com/23853764