What good is handling in corners if you always get passed on the straights?
 

https://youtu.be/vHAiXBDKS_E?t=5m16s

Watch him chase the Firebird. It's the same pattern. Firebird leaves him in the dust in the straight. 911 then catches up in the corner, but can never pass. It seems impossible to pass in the turns. So, he always stays behind and never passes. So, what good is catching up in the turns? It seems like he will never pass or beat this Firebird once it's gotten ahead of him.

I was thinking... That reads like a Sugarwood post. And it was.

So much fun catching and passing a power car in an underdog car.
The good of it is when there are more corners than straights. /thread.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nS4MIfA5i64" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/t3ppTh3TYtA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

That's the difference between fast cars and fast drivers! Anyone can buy horsepower. Even my mother (87) can go fast in a straight line with enough horsepower. Becoming a fast driver though, is a completely different story: You need talent, skills, understand the dynamics of the car; its advantages and limitations, and seat time! It's all in your brain!

Muscle cars have no brain, only muscle. So with no brain to control the muscles, the car can't react to sudden changes, it can only go straight. Drag racing as opposed to road racing.

In a 911, the driver's brain and the car's "brain" need to be connected. You don't drive the car, you are the car. And the car is you. You are telepathically connected to every component in the car, and the car does exactly what your brain tells it to do.

With "no brain muscle cars", there is no brain to connect to!

Road America is a track that favors horsepower over handling. Even with matched PTW vehicles there are only a few places where you can pass. An underpowered car, even with an excellent driver, will struggle to make the pass and keep the position.

There are plenty of other tracks where that Porsche would own that Firebird.

The Mini car control is something very different than a 911 on the limit.
Full throttle and aim the front drive wheels where you want it to go. :)
Looks like you drive the a mini from the firewall forward and the back just follows.

It's a classic battle. :cool:
All you can do is try to pass the heavy V8 car near the beginning of the twistys make a gap large enough to hold the lead till the end of the next long straight.
Then hopefully extend your gap next time through the twisty parts.

And do a little.....ahem..... selective blocking....Those mini's can get pretty big....

As for the question of straights - vs turns - If you're out for wins and points - choose your track accordingly. If you're out for fun, well then, just go have fun! At DE days I get passed all the time, but more than once I've gotten compliments from other drivers on my line and technique - although lifting inside wheels, and drifting through turns unnerves some people following me in modern cars...

-C

Wow. I'd heard the mini drivers were nuts, but those are some serious cajones out there. I love how he's waving to his friends whilst sideways in a turn....love it!

Agreed Road America is an extremely horsepower-biased track. Those loooooong straights reward the cars with a lot of go, even if the weight:horsepower ratio is similar amongst the cars like Matt said. The car with more horsepower is going to capitalize even more as speed increases because that car has more power to overcome aero resistance and weight becomes less of a hindrance to acceleration.

That said, the guy driving the 911 doesn't appear to be taking advantage of what the 911 does very well- braking. It seems the driver is being a bit apprehensive. He brakes quite early, tends to turn in early, and sort of coasts into corners. I don't know if it's the tires he's on or the setup is a bit off or the driver skill. But he can't charge the corners very well, nor can he power out of them very well.

Where the video starts, he's right on the Firebird as they approach the carousel. Thru the carousel he's right on him and actually gets a run coming out when the Firebird can't lay down the power quite yet. Then the 911 gets gassed as he upshifts and the Firebird keeps on pulling. Then the Firebird has to slow down MUCH more than the 911 for the kink but there's nothing the 911 can do there. So 911 is right on him again. Now the 911 has to hang on as much as he can for the run wide open down to Canada Corner.

Where the 911 appears to falter is he doesn't take advantage of his braking superiority. He stays in the wake of the Firebird and even brakes when the Firebird does- much too early IMO before the slight left bend leading to Canada Corner. He should be on the right flank of the Firebird anticipating its MUCH earlier braking, keep the power on and start his braking much deeper. If he can take away the inside line to the turn, he's got the Firebird and should gap him a bit thru the right-left-right section leading up to the front straightaway, because he can clearly carry more speed thru that twisty rhythm section. However, no arguing that once he hits the front straight he is dead meat because it's long and uphill. The battle sways back to advantage American muscle

If you back up the video to 4:10, you'll again see where he's not using his brake advantage. The baby blue 'Vette gets him down the Moraine Sweep straightaway with all that HP. But the 911 should be able to fight back under braking for Turn 5. The 'Vette only manages to get a couple of cars ahead and then the 'Vette has to jump on the hooks early (by my estimation of where a 911 gets into the brakes there) which gives the 911 a chance. So instead of continuing on hard, 911 just lets the 'Vette dictate where his own braking starts and sorta target-fixates and/or copycats what the 'Vette does. But 911 seems to get a bit flustered with the 'Vette having the inside, doesn't charge forward, and now has no chance to outbrake him in an attempt for an outside pass.

My point here is, if he gets the 'Vette back in T5 and can beat him up the hill, he has a chance to hold him off to the carousel where he has an advantage (although not much since 911 is rather unsteady thru there) for a while. However, the run thru Hurry Downs straight leading to the lefty Turn 8 before carousel is an advantage for cars with big power. So his hope is to hold him off and gap him again thru and out of the carousel before being gassed on the run to Canada Corner. Had he not faltered coming out of Turn 5, I suspect we would have seen the same encounter with the Firebird at Canada Corner- ease into the braking, follow 'Vette/Firebird through the twisty section and wave buh bye on the front straight.

Watch these guys in the yellow & white 3.0 RSRs duke it out in a similar fashion at Road Atlanta (also a horsepower track) with a big power early Mustang. Notice how they best the Mustang in the brake department and close the gap on the Mustang very well under braking. In the Firebird video, we never really saw the 911 closing the gap under braking, did we?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x2MbuSvqxE&index=1&list=FLHJMEWT4gFl2ZdNW 7zqeFaw

But keep in mind that Road Atlanta is much faster & shorter than Road America. Meaning, a few of the turns leading into & out of the straight sections are much faster than those at Road America. Most turns after the straights at Road America are semi-slow except Turn 1. So the advantage goes to the 911s at Road Atlanta. Plus the guys in the Atlanta 911s are much more aggressive in their braking and can power out of the turns really well. So my point is, don't let that Firebird video be too influential in how you see the 911 get gassed on the power. The guys at Road Atlanta "do it right" in that they fight right back to their advantage when the Mustang rockets down the back straight, but has to tippy toe thru the gentle right hander because he has to brake so early going downhill

If you wanna see an epic battle between two great cars and great drivers, with cars that are pretty close on weight:power, but each car has its own advantage in certain places at Road America, watch Mark White & Tim McKenzie duke it out.

https://vimeo.com/29219114

That 914 is one mean little cockaroach and shows the 911 who's boss in the braking & cornering dept. McKenzie's Turn 1 braking point and cornering speed + handling thru the carousel is incredible! Mark White is definitely no slouch behind the 911 wheel and his cars are some of the best prepared cars you'll see anywhere. :D

KTL, thanks for sharing. brilliant.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/1x2MbuSvqxE?list=FLHJMEWT4gFl2ZdNW7zqeFaw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

RIP Tim. I remember a few years back he ran the enduro at the 48 Hours of Sebring with the sole intention of Cup Car slaying. He went out with only enough gas for 40 minutes on a 60 minute race. I think he qualified somewhere around 18th. When he pulled into the pits on reserve he was in 5th or 6th. Only cars left in front of him are 997.2 Cups and rsrs.

I'm so glad that Brian continues to campaign and refine that car after his death. Its a really special 914-6+

That Mini and Mustang video was great fun to watch! Loved it! I was actually in suspense the whole time with the 2 blue cars. But, that clip only reinforced my observation. You can talk all you want about handing, but it seems like a moot point. Big HP is what appears to actually win races. The mini was never going to win that race, since it would always lose in the straights, and it can never pass in the turns. So, once you get passed by bigger HP, you will never overtake. Like the 911 vs. Firebird. Like the Mini vs. Mustang.

What is the purpose of that big negative camber on the Mustang?

Right, but heavy muscle cars clearly win the race, as evidenced by the Firebird and Mustang clips posted in this thread.
What's the point of being a fast driver if you never actually win?

I guess I don't understand the satisfaction in constantly catching a car, only to never actually pass it since you're always blocked in the turns.
Sounds like a bad case of blue bearings. since that's like constantly taking women out on successful 3rd dates, but never actually having sex with them!

If your goal by going to the track is not to go fast and win, but rather, to intentionally handicap yourself and do something more difficult than the others...
then why not take the "brain" metaphor to its logical conclusion, and take a unicycle to the track?
A unicycle takes even more skill to control, and like the underpowered Mini or 911, you will always chase, and never actually pass and win.

You win dude. Put the 1986 911 up for sale and buy a trans am instead, go do some track days and races and report back please.

Ok, I just got to KTL's post. I have to step out, and will watch his clips later today, but it sounds like KTL is saying passing in the turns is not impossible, which would give some advantage back to the light cars, if they employ optimal braking technique.

I'm guessing my report would be, "The light underpowered car in my rear view mirror gets bigger, then smaller, then bigger, then smaller (ad infinitum)"

Check out the last season the pensky Porsche spyder in p2 diced with the big Audi cars in p1 of alms

You've got to take into account class. The low powered cars aren't in the same class as the high powered cars.

The mustang has a fairly unconventional front suspension in that the coil spring and shock sit on top of the upper control arm. This causes the bottom of the outside tire to roll in on turns. The original shelbys lowered the upper control arm by 1" to generate more negative camber and correct this tendency. I've done the same to every mustang I've restored or hotrodded. It makes a noticeable difference in handling.

You win again!

Your car is ready (see link). Cost will be similar to an air cooled race package. More HP, more weight, but probably quicker around just about any circuit all else being equal.

Phoenix Cars for Sale

If you want to "win" a DE event vs. an air-cooled 911, this is the ticket. If you want to race, this will be a different class altogether. Note that the caption in the video you posted originally says that the 911 was 1st in class...apparently wasn't even racing vs. the Trans Am. Might explain why he wasn't more aggressive in trying to pass. That's historic racing...if he's already 1st in class, why be a hero and try to pass for better overall position when the risk is a couple of very cool old race cars might get bent up.

By the way, when I was shopping for a race car (bought my 1983 911), I looked at C5 vettes, like the linked vehicle. Great track cars, but I want to learn to drive a rear engine classic 911. As posted in your other thread "if I have to explain it you wouldn't understand"

Good videos!
Some highlights are 18:50 and 20:20.

At 22:50, there is an interesting contrast with 2 cars taking different lines.
The green Mini took some outside divebomb to the inside lane.
I think this is called late apex?

At 1:16, the Mustang seems to pivot left effortlessly. That looked very cool.

It was interesting to see at 5:43, the driver downshifts 3 gears, and the tach never really goes that high. He also passes 2 cars during this, as they all approach the turn.

it just goes to show you that if you can drive a slow car fast, you can drive anything fast!!

That's what made it so interesting when the P2 Penske cars took the overall wins at some tracks. That was my favourite season of racing to watch ever, with e underdog scrapping it out for inches in the corners and the big Audis powering down the straights.

With the mix of fast tracks and tight tracks it was a really interesting season to watch!

Wayner, you have any video links of the mixed class racing you're referring to?

Those RS Spyders were amazing racecars.

I have poor connectivity today so can;t view any videos but these links might lead to some good battles. (They may just be good race footage though, I haven't previewed them)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC7VTO0czqA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXLGMZDKBv8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_GE60Zq0kc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOh9kAwCwBk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhS7_eVA8zc



Sugarwood, look at imsa.com as well for the latest.

ALso, note that in racing "MOST" passing is done on the brakes, not coming out of a corner on the power.
The passes that are out of the corner where set up on corner entrance

The problem with modern racing though is that they epic battles will not happen again. The organizers make sure of it by assessing wight penalties etc. now.

Much of the class racing and brand competition is so contrived today, unlike the early days where Porsche could show up with their new 1955 spyder at less than 2 litres and win over a hugely powerful ferrari.

Another point not mentioned is the power the V8 cars are now making

A good friend of mine works on vintage american road race cars.
Brand new 700hp Chevies Fords or Dodges are readily available at prices that would make
us Porsche guys cry. Pay a little more and it's 850hp

Larry doesn't worry about making them light anymore. He worries about making the drivetrain strong enough

However I can't help myself I love the "Ass engined Nazi slot cars"

Dan raises a good point. An extra 20, 50, or even 100 horsepower in some cases is not that significant when you have to slow down for the corners. You need LOTS of extra hp to win a drag race to the end of the straight and make it stick.

One of my most fun track events was using this white 150 hp skinny tired 72 911 to chase down silver turbos. It took me three laps of getting passed and then harassing them through the twisty section again each time, before I could finally make it stick without getting caught again on the straight the next lap.

Sure it was a DE event, and we were pointing each other by, but we were all being good sports and giving the point by any time the car behind us was closing significantly or filling mirrors for more than a couple of corners (or yards down a straight).

Their fun ended when we came upon red traffic this time through the twisties. I put two more cars between us and those fast silver cars on the twisty back section and gave myself a buffer. The head start that I got down the straight was just enough not to get caught which meant that by the time I had cleared the twisties on e more time, I had gotten away. Man I was working hard but what a hoot!
They had lots of power, but with that low powered lighter little white car I just couldn't afford to slow down for the corners.

Like lots of the guys on the board, once you've experienced that you'll get it

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1455414699.jpg

Where's the " Like" button??!!

Been there done that. The OP asks what good is it to catch up in the turns and KT's answer is that's where you pass. I agree. At Road American the damn high HP cars are a PITA to get past. I've had lots of laps there trying to get past a cup car or 928 where they walk away on the straights but over-brake in the turns. The only way to get past and make it stick is to pass at T5 and then get enough ahead that they can't catch you at Canada Corner or T1. You have to make your car wide in T6 through the kink. It can be done but it's a lot of work.

Here's a fun race I had at RA, cursing the cup cars most of the time and wishing for more HP... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VVGyl7Cgw4 In this video, the cayman is also GT3 but it appears he has more HP than I do (I'm about 315) but I do get past and make it stick.

Yes, Tom, and those Cup Cars are super annoying at Sears Point too!

Great video Tom, I enjoyed that.

+1

Passing on the straights is boring anyway, anyone can be fast between the corners. The fun is in the racecraft: figuring out the strengths and weaknesses of competing cars on the same track. Where you can brake later, carry more speed through the corner, and make it stick on the track out. Planning, setting up, and executing your move. Then pushing hard to keep them behind you.

The events I've been to where I have the fastest car in the group and start on the front row are generally the least memorable. The fun is battling it out and earning your position.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1455556748.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1455556625.jpg

Video from a "Drag Car" with over twice the amount of HP as my Porsche 911. It takes awhile, but once I get him, he can't keep up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeG20UkxlDE&list=LL9wU3oWJzomXePV8MsyHQtw& index=4


Then, my favorite. Playing chess and using a "pick" backmarker to make things work. Especially in this long straight configuration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZKkPgVjCIQ

<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UZKkPgVjCIQ?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Skip to 7:30 to see the setup for the 911 going ahead

I love seeing vintage muscle being raced. So glad someone is thrashing their mid 60's Vette instead of polishing it for the monthly 1.4 mile drive to the cruise night.

Plavan, that was fun! 11:40 to 13:00 (particularly 12:55 to 13:15) nicely illustrates the “muscle car vs. Elise/911/Miata” chess match.
Their characteristics are mirror images of each other.

https://youtu.be/UZKkPgVjCIQ?t=11m43s

What do you think was the weight difference between the Muscle and your 2.7 Porsche ?

NASA Midwest used to have a sort of "bracket racing" for road racing. At the end of the weekend, they would take your fastest lap times from the regular racing class, to make new classes based on lap times for that weekend for a bonus race. As one of the faster 944's, I would typically get classed with higher HP cars, often with "CMC" class Mustang and Camaros that would have a good 100 more HP, and 600 lbs more weight, along with inferior handling.

t was some of the most fun racing I've done, especially at tracks like Gingerman, that string togther lots of twisty bits. Lots of racecraft at play. You try and suck them them into outbraking duels, in the corner before a straight. If you could get them to come into that corner too hot, they could not get on the power early to use their power advantage out of the corner - win! Then you would make them go around the outside (the long way), and if they did get by, pull right in the draft, only to pull out again under braking, where you could again make up time. Pull this off well, and you'd at least be in striking distance in the twisties, where you would be all over them, and seek to control the corner in such a way to keep them from getting back on the gas (delay their turn in). If all else fails, you hound them mercilessly until their overworked tires and brakes gave up the ghost.

They car is not to stuff your nose in every opportunity you have - you kill your precious momentum - study their line, and where their car is weak, and a make a decisive move then. Bluff and feint all you like, but be strategic and decisive on where and how you make a move. It's a challenge, and frustrating at times, but very satisfying when you pull it off.

Or you can swap an LS motor into your 944, and have it all! ;)

https://sterlingdoc.smugmug.com/PORC...44%20motor.jpg

To paraphrase Homer Simpson: Horsepower, the cause of, and solution to all of racing's problems....