Pros and cons of tracking a gutted $30k '78-'89 911 ?

[sugarwood]

FS: 1986 Porsche 911 Carrera Race Car, Black

Love it. Very cool.

I saw this ad and it promoted a basic, and probably stupid, question. Air cooled era is loved for what it is, but at ~ 200hp, it's not the ideal track weapon. It's not as fast as modern cars, and that's why racers use modern cars. It's lighter, of course, so there is a trade off.

What I don't get is the value proposition of a '78-89 for the track. This car for sale is $30k. Part of that cost is that it's a collectible air cooled car. But, for the track, where laps times are all that matter, why would anyone drop $30k on a car that isn't too fast? Maybe they don't. I suppose there are 20 track Miatas for every one of these?

It seems like you could get a much faster track car for under $10k without the collector classic premium (Miata, etc). The collector premium on an original street car can at least be justified by “collectability”, but it doesn't seem to apply to a very utilitarian gutted track car.

One explanation may be that no one is ripping apart a $30k car anymore, and adding $20k of track upgrades. A car like this might be a decade old build, when these were $10k cars?

But, what's the play here? Who is the buyer for a relatively slow track car for $30k ? Can't you replicate all those track mods for less? And even if not, you have all those track mods on a inherently "underpowered" car, that isn't ideal for its stated goal.

[Matt Monson]

A few of your premises are flawed. E is currently one of the hottest and most competitive classes in PCA club racing. And guys are spending six figures on building cars to race the class. The Accumoto cars, which there were more than half a dozen last weekend at Sebring, are works of art. I don't remember the field count for the class but go race any national or regional race and you will have E guys to race against.

This is not a 200hp car. He said 215 on the dyno. That's 240-250 at the crank. And it is light. It has a power to weight ratio to compete with cars with 100hp more. Where a Modern car will beat this car is more in the suspension department. No getting around the torsion bar piece of it.

That said, this car is a bargain for a turnkey ready to race E class car. It would need some investment to be at the pointy end of the field. But it's well on its way.

[Matt Monson]

PS. It could also be repurposed to run Spec911 in the PRC. Again, large fields and high build standards. Guys are basically remanufacturing these cars to race them.

[OldSpool87]

Hi neighbor,

In my opinion, there is no value prop or true reason which is grounded in economics or rational thought to buy any DE/race prepped car. With this car, which I momentarily thought about buying until I remembered I have three cars and a two car garage and three kids to feed, the pay off is the opportunity to drive an air cooled 911 on a race track!!

I actually see a lot of value in buying a used car like this as all the track goodies cost a fortune new and get passed along at a good discount to the new owner not to mention the "dial in" time.

There are many cars with higher hp but in the right hands this one could probably keep up with most at a track like Limerock. If you go the "other car" route, you are doomed to driving the "other car".

This one is street legal too....

[juanbenae]

plus, they are very fun cars to drive at speed on track.

[RichardNew]

Used race cars usually sell at one-half of the build cost. Often even less.

Buying a car such as this is far more sensible than starting from scratch. You should also plan on spending about $10,000 on this car to get it track ready. That's just racing.

Richard Newton
Historic Race Cars

[wayner]

I own my early car for track duty (not racing) because of the experience that it provides. There are faster cars, cheer cars, but in terms of reliability, ability to put it away wet, and challenge myself, I find it very rewarding compared to other cars that may even be easier to drive. I've reached a level where I am utterly board in those other cars and the 911 is a new challenge

Pshycologists say that a person is most happy when doing something that they are barely competent at

[Cory M]

I started to write a response but stopped, it's kind of like that Harley Davidson shirt - "if I have to explain you wouldn't understand"...

[jwasbury]

Lots of very well worded responses already to the OP. I'll add my 2 cents worth.

Change a few words in your post...switch race/track car for "fun weekend" street car. Why does anyone pay $30k+ for a 30 year old underpowered air cooled toy for the street when for same or less money you could have a Corvette, or any other number of higher powered cars that are better on paper?

It comes down to the driving experience. Air cooled is cool. Street or track.

The car in the link is a nice looking tool and no, you couldn't even come close to building it for that price.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Cory M

I started to write a response but stopped, it's kind of like that Harley Davidson shirt - "if I have to explain you wouldn't understand"...

[Cajundaddy]

Originally Posted by Cory M

I started to write a response but stopped, it's kind of like that Harley Davidson shirt - "if I have to explain you wouldn't understand"...

+1

That car is probably as "slow" around a race course as a 991 GT3 off the lot. Many older 911s regularly challenge for TTOD at local race tracks. A lotta car for $30k.

[saxen]

an E spec 911 like that will outrun a stock new base 911 without much trouble. those cars are fast at the track- big bang for the buck and you get to run with some of the best drivers in the poc.

[Sicklyscott]

I'll be taking my '80 out on the track for the first time in the next few months. I have had the same conversation with myself regarding my final wants and desires for a track car. In fact I'm still looking at 996tt as a possible replacement.

What everyone said above about E class is spot on but i want to add that these cars have something special in them. It won't be the fastest car on the track but it'll certainly teach you to drive. The feedback is amazing in all aspects and it really teaches the novice what's going on with the car. It is rare that a more modern car has the same.

[Charles Freeborn]

Looks like fun to me!

[gliding_serpent]

It is all about fun. The fun and challenge of driving an old car at the limit. You need to do it to understand. Also fun is catching modern, less involved, cars with an old classic.

The 911 keeps me interested because it is also very challenging to drive well at the limit. It takes a lot more of my skill to drive fast than a modern sports car does. A good modern sports car I have figured out in less than two days at the track. My 911 is not so easy, but so rewarding, and that is why I love it.

When my build is finished this spring, its power to weight will slot between a 991 carrera and 991s, and be street comfortable.

[Matt Monson]

^this guy gets it. I used to track my 86 and it would startle the hell out of the guys in STis when I popped up in their mirrors and started sticking my nose in to let them know I wanted by. They are harder to drive fast but oh so satisfying when you do.

I've "retired" my 86 because of values but I bought my 74 as a "I wanna go fast" replacement. The car this thread is about is a bargain. My car cost me close to that and still has nothing track specific on it other than 930 wheels and some swaybars.

[gliding_serpent]

It would be much cheaper to buy this car in the 1st post, and make it a bit more street friendly (dial back the suspension, slap in a RS interior) than to do what I did and build up a street car.

So tack me on as someone who would buy a relatively "slow" track car at 30K. And that comes from someone who has track driven a bmw 328, 1973 2002Tii, mazdaspeed3, bmw Z4 m coupe, Audi RS5, 997 Carrera S, Ferrari 360 spyder, and my 84 911. Guess which one I enjoyed the most? Hint, it was a close finish between the two older cars on the list.

[sugarwood]

I do know that buying a track prepped car is always the better value, if you want a track car. Cheaper to buy completed vs. build a project. I specifically was trying to compare various track prepped choices.... $30k track prepped classic 911 vs. a similarly track prepped car for half that or less, which does not have any collector classic premium.

I don't race, so I was not accounting for the racing class brackets. I was picturing one guy spending $30k on an old 911, and another guy buying a supercharged 944 or Miata or Boxster S. The latter seem like a better bang for the buck, driver skill held constant. But, since they'd race in different classes, any shortcomings are equalized. The classic car makes more sense when you exclusively duke it out with just other classic cars. In that case, it's not what you're driving, but how you drive it. Even if it's a go-kart race.

I was also assuming track cars are a commodity with just one metric: lap time. Assuming the only point of track racing is to go as absolutely fast as possible. Live and die by 1/10s and all that jazz. With no class subgrouping, you'd ditch the stick shift and heel/toe for a modern PDK that auto-blips. And double your horsepower for straights. There is no question that if you were racing wheel to wheel to negotiate your release from prison. But, what I learned in this thread is that, for some, track racing is about driving enjoyment/engagement, not only going as fast as possible. The same reason we all drive an old 911 in the first place, and not a new one. Deliberately wanting to be challenged with a more interesting to drive car, instead of a modern car that will make it too easy and boring to drive very fast, can apply to both street and track.

About the Harley quip, the moto experts I know say Harleys leave a lot to be desired when it comes to metrics like build quality, engineering, handling, and reliability. If so, you're right, I wouldn't understand !

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

+1

That car is probably as "slow" around a race course as a 991 GT3 off the lot. Many older 911s regularly challenge for TTOD at local race tracks. A lotta car for $30k.

How can a car with 250hp match a 475hp 991 GT3?
The power to weight ratio is not even in the same universe.

[gliding_serpent]

how can 250hp beat 475hp? Because it is about FAR FAR more than Hp.

On tight tracks, the fastest car is not always the one with the most power, but rather the one that slows down the least. Take your car to a HPDE and you will begin to learn that hp does not make a car fast; the driver does (and I am small potatoes as far as driving goes). After that, tires, suspension, brakes. and gearing are key. Hp is actually quite low on the list.

Mind you, go to a track that is a "power track" (road america) and the guys with big engines that are good at depressing the loud pedal will do just fine. Lime Rock, not so much.

Sugarwood, I passed a modern 455hp Corvette stingray in a my 130hp (at the fly) 1973 2002Tii (with mild suspension upgrades and a LSD). I passed a 400hp+ Ferrari in a bone stock 3600lbs+ 230hp BMW 328. I passed a 996tt (he actually knew what he was doing, with had more track time than me) in a stock 263hp FWD Mazdaspeed3. Handling track mind you. What did I have? More skill, and in the case of the Tii and Mazda, R compound tires, and better brake pads (but not race pads). And do you know what passed me? A kid in a Honda civic SI (maybe over 200hp) with four doors, proper race suspension (proper stiffness and negative camber) and slicks. One of our most experienced local race car drivers (Top 2, and he wins about half his races, and often travels abroad to race) in a street Cayman S had to work hard to keep up with that kid in the Civic.

Want to drive faster? Drive a "slower" car. Equal drivers, sure the GT3 wins. But equal driving time, the guy who slogs it out in an under-powered car will become the faster driver than the guy who starts with the GT3. You know what happens when you drive a slow car? Everyone passes you until you realize that you need to use every inch of the track, every inch of the braking zone, power down on turn exit as soon as humanly possible. Drive perfect lines, be consistent. You learn to drive well because every little mistake is so punishing. The first time I took my Tii to the track, I passed one car. One. A BMW Z4... but man did my instructor and I cheer. I was passed a million times. The second time I took it to the track, no street car under 350hp could touch me.

Get in a 400+hp car and many people compensate for poor skill by stepping hard on the loud pedal when the car is in a straight line. It can slow development as a driver because the car makes people think they are better than they are. That is why I am still catching "faster cars" in even more advanced run groups at the track. Some folks are there because their car is fast, and maybe they put in the time, but as a driver, they still have a lot more to learn, and their lines show it.

But can you buy a faster race car than a old 911 for less money? Absolutely. Can you buy another race car that has the feel of an old 911 race car? Absolutely not. I have driven cars with just about every drivetrain combo possible, and the feeling of my 84 is priceless.

I was in line at the liquor store a few years ago. I had some Strongbow and Guinness. The guy behind me has a 24 or bud. HE says... "man, you are going to pay more than me and get half as much beer!" I look at him and say "true, but I will not need to get drunk before I begin to enjoy it."