How do you correctly navigate a 90* turn?
 

When driving on remote back roads, I encounter a hard 90* turn, but not in an intersection. I never feel like I nail this downshift & turn. I need to slow down a lot, enough that 2nd gear is the correct gear to power out of the turn. Yet, let's say you're approaching this turn at 55 mph. It feels too fast to shift into 2nd gear. I feel like I shift into 2nd gear in the middle of the turn, which I know is wrong. What exactly is the correct procedure? Slow in a straight line until I am in 2nd gear territory, downshift, then take the turn? If I do this, I almost feel like I am slowing down too much. I feel like I can take the turn faster than the speed needed to be in 2nd gear. Or at least, the timing is off.

Depends on the corner, what leads into the corner, and what follows the corner. Lotsa different ways to do a 90.

One example of a typical street corner at a race track with a flat surface:

I expect the apex speed in a street car to be about 45. If I go through there at 47 I will end up in the dirt or my PSM will flash engagement reminding me I am driving foolishly. To make the most of a right 90 corner I will enter from as far left as possible to open up the radius a bit, brake in a straight line to about 50mph, turn in for a late apex and allow tires to set and scrub a little speed on my way to the apex. Once I have sighted my track out point I will add gas hoping to be full throttle at or shortly after crossing my late apex point as I unwind the wheel on my way down the straight.

For a 45 mph apex I would normally heel/toe downshift to 2nd gear in the braking zone so I will get the best launch out of the corner. If it were possible to carry third gear through apex above 4000 rpm I would use 3rd and avoid the downshift/upshift inputs. The tradeoff is max torque vs max driver focus.

This is a common 90 corner method at a race track. There are others. I don't recommend trying this and going "all-in" at your next canyon carving session on public roads.

Let's say heel/toe is not an option, and you can't brake and downshift at the same time. It seems like there is a "dead zone", where I'd have to slow down too much to get into 2nd, but taking the turn in 3rd is too high.

With my students whose h/t is not ready I recommend brake > downshift > turn in > gas. That gets your entry speed down so 2nd gear won't be a 7k zinger. Release the clutch while still in a straight line to avoid upsetting the car. The solution to the "dead zone" of course is heel/toe. This smooths the transition to 2nd gear into one fluid motion. A very useful technique to make the most of corner entry.

You are on the street. Of course there is going to be "dead zone". You can't drive on the street like you would on the track.

I know many racers that don't heel/toe and there is no dead zone for them on the track.

Google "Scandinavian flick" :D

Chicane is not a 90 degree turn.
It's like a swerve, and certainly not reducing speed to 2nd gear.
I find them to be very different.

Often a chicane is two 90 degree turns one after the other.....but like Charles said, whatever. You need to get a clue before you dismiss information from people that know a hell of a lot more than you do.

True repentance is actually 180*.

If your not sure of the 90. Always get braking done before turn in (with H&T down shift)....late apex...then full power. Best, Mark

If you really want to have fun try an early car with trailing throttle oversteer.

Go in really hot and lift off the gas. The rear will break loose. When the back end gets to the angle you want jump back on the gas and accelerate.

Trailing throttle oversteer is your friend. :)

Richard Newton

First, there is no need to be a dick.
Perhaps I need to get a clue, or perhaps I have a different perspective and context than you.

The definition of chicane from Wikipedia says "One form of chicane is a short, shallow S-shaped turn".
Now, maybe there is no standardized definition of a chicane, and maybe some are 90 degrees, and that would explain the disconnect.

I have driven the "bus stop" at Watkins Glen, which I was told is a "chicane".
Look at the photo, do you see a 90 degree turn? I do not.
Navigating this chicane was nothing like the turn I originally described in this thread.
http://static.nascar.com/content/dam...tions/original

Here is a photo called "Le Mans Chicane".
Do you see a 90 degree turn?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rd_Chicane.jpg

Here is another photo titled "chicane", by the Institute of Transportation Engineers.
Do you see a 90 degree turn?
http://www.ite.org/images/calming/tcccp1.gif

Street racing forum? For crying out loud, I am talking about correctly taking a sharp turn where I am well within the speed limit in either gear.
What a sanctimonious prig. I am not doing anything even remotely resembling street racing, and frankly, do not appreciate your overtly disingenuous accusations.

Sideways

The Monza chicane:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...1dad80c13d.jpg

Well, maybe Monza didn't like it either as a chicane.....it's being removed for 2017.....

Yea, we've already got that covered.

Dude, you deserve no help......

I suggest you take the turn 5 quarts low on oil.

:d

Yea, but in second gear or third?

Definitely 2nd, not Granny shifting double clutch rev matching like you know you should.

That sounds illegal and should only be done on the track. Anything past 2000 rpm is irresponsibly dangerous. [emoji48]

Suggested reading:
The turn type your are speaking of is a type 1 turn in the PCA lexicon for future reference, you either are leaving a straight or heading on to one . it can be found in the performance driving handbook that many regions have developed.

Is it 90 degree right turn or 90 degree left turn?

I don't know why nobody has suggested it yet, obviously the correct technique is a reverse entry drift.

https://media.giphy.com/media/De9K8QprzNy3S/giphy.gif

^^^This has my vote...

I wish more modern PCA instructors had experience in early cars.

On the street I leave a margin for error, move my brake zone further away for the corner, get it done early, get back on positive throttle just enough to settle the car ( no understeer, and some weight transfer to the rear with minor throttle, and be amazed how well a not quite neutral air cooled 911 sticks like it's on rails as you turn in)

Get it right and this is a real treat. Get it wrong and there is no drama, but your butt and hands can sense that you could have done it just a bit better.

Then of course this can be followed by lots of throttle after turn in as you unwind because the rear of these car dig in the more you transfer the weight.

Forget the aggressiveness of the track, play with perfecting your balance. It's a neat sensation to turn in at the right speed and amount of throttle in these air cooled cars.

(On the track you modify this since the track is different but there is lots to be said about early throttle in these cars)

Right turn.

wayner is suggesting being in 2nd gear before the turn, and having some throttle as the turn starts.
That would mean some real serious braking before the turn to get into 2nd gear before it.

An long wheel base air cooled 911 is NOT a momentum machine like a Cayman, 944or 914. It's a unique animal.

Exploit its hard braking skills and its ability to start accelerating sooner and come off corners harder

Why is it a different animal?

It's all about the engine location. Think of the rear axle as a teeter totter

To exaggerate it, imagine that when you are on the gas it wants to do a wheelie and when your off the gas the engine wants to go up and over, levering the back wheels off the ground.

Extreme exaggeration I know, but it's useful,in figuring out why there is little front or rear end grip at certain times. To balance it you absolutely have to be on the throttle to some degree

It's seems over the last few years in the Porsche world we've lost the common phrase "accelerate towards the apex"

Always: breaking done early, unless you are an expert at backing it in like the guys that race the short wheel base cars or have a ton of experience walking the tightrope of grip.

P.S.
At a DE event, I'd be very careful getting a newer PCA instructor who has never driven an air cooled car and following their advice to a T. They can get you in trouble if they don't realize what they are asking you to do sometimes.

Joking aside, all cars have strengths and weaknesses. Miatas are a gold standard for handling because they fit the book models of driving. Low power, 50/50 weight distribution, no bad habits, no specific strengths. Be smooth, brake straight, late apex, roll into gas. Drive a Miata by the book and you'll be fast.

Not every car is like that. A Subaru STi or or Mitsubishi EVO, for example, are outlier cars. They overload their front tires in braking and early phases of a corner like a fwd car. However, they dig, plant, and squirt very well. They respond very well to getting the braking and turning done early compared to other cars, and with the ability to put power down so well you can cheat and cut distance while you're at it. The result is known as more of a "diamond line," or closer to straight lining from apex to apex. Real point and squirt stuff.

FWD cars tend to be very stable and forgiving, but also have a tough time rotating under certain circumstances. When I drive fwd in competition, I use some pretty wacky heavy trail braking and hard steering inputs intended to upset the car to force it to do things I want that aren't in books.

Rear engine cars differ a bit on setup, but for the most part the weight in the rear makes them inherently unstable. But that also keeps weight off the fronts. So they brake very well and plant the rears very well in a straight line. But they also don't like transition - accelerating all that weight in the rear laterally takes time. Plus under power the already light fronts get even lighter, which reduces their authority to request turning even more. So in my experience, 911s like late, hard, but straight line braking, fairly traditional late apex line aka get the turning done early, and get on that gas asap to use the traction advantage at corner exit. My car hates hard transitions and gets downright evil if too much trail braking is used or too much speed is carried into the corner entry phase.

Sugarwood, as with Matt's excellent post above,
let Patrick long show you at 13:32

( or the ultimate double 90, the corkscrew just at in the video, or how he picks up,the throttle early at 14:07 & 14:14. And way back at 1:08)

https://youtu.be/PTaJ62xW8Jk

I do see the maintenance throttle first, and then the full throttle.
However, remember that I'm talking about a hard 90 degree turn, not a track thing.

In that case, I slow right down, well in advance...then I tiptoe through it...then I gently accelerate,out. I don't want to end up in the other lane and endanger anyone.

This person is driving on the street. Don't help him be an idiot.....

See post 13.

See post #36.

Ok, I'm back to reverse entry drift then.