Future air-cooled 911 owner questions

[vanuber]

I am a long-time enthusiast and hopeful future owner of an air-cooled 911. The timeline to ownership is unknown, but probably 5+ years from now financially speaking.

I am considering all ‘74-‘89 naturally-aspirated models, but am very keen on the ’74-’77 2.7 models as I love the purist design, lightweight, narrow-body look, and great color choices. I am aware of the thermal issues and costly rebuild of the magnesium cases. I would want something original, reasonably low-mileage, well sorted and maintained, a presentable driver, MY ’76 and ’77 preferred due to galvanized bodies, thermal issues sorted, etc.

I have a few questions for those in tune with the market:


1) What is a reasonable budget for a very original, well sorted and maintained 2.7? I know it’s difficult to gauge the future market. I can see prices leveling, but not dipping much. I would like to stay in the $50-75K USD range, but I may need to reevaluate after seeing recent auction and asking prices.

2) How can I put myself in a better position to purchase a solid car given the timeframe of 5+ years? Are there ways to build relationships with potential sellers in the meantime? Car clubs? Further education on what makes a good buy, etc.

3) Where should I be looking for cars? I am sure a lot of good cars move outside of BaT, the Pelican forum, or Samba. Dealerships? Is importing from Europe an option to consider?

4) What is the true cost of ownership? I am in my early 40’s and a bit of a late bloomer. I changed careers 8 years ago, recently remarried and started my own professional practice. We are upper-middle class and it seems a lot of owners are quite wealthy. Can I really afford this?



And for fun... My dream car is a ’76 or ’77 2.7 911S in Coppa Florio with Cork interior. Here are a few sales for reference:

-’77 911S 2.7 in Coppa Florio with Cork interior (does anyone know what this sold for?) – https://canfordclassics.co.uk/products/1977-911s-2-7-for-sale

-’77 911S 2.7 in Coppa Florio with Black interior, sold for $80K – https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1977-porsche-911s-44/

Thanks for any advice!

[Matt Monson]

5 years is a lifetime in this market. 5 years ago you could get a decent driver middie for $30k. Now it’s $50-60k. 5 more years? They might be six figures by then.

[JettandTye]

Love the car but as Matt said, these are only going up and your choice of color does not help as it is very desirable and therefore more expensive. I am biased as we own a 77 targa in coppa. That said, once these cars are dialed in they are very reliable and not too expensive to maintain. The dialing in part can be expensive depending on the historical care of the car.

[NYNick]

What Matt said, but...

Where are you located? The early "galvanized body" thing is almost not even worth talking about in the rust belt. These cars rust. All of them. They rust. Be ultra careful. People hide it all the time.

Your second and third points above are the best way to find a car. Join PCA. Go to PCA events. Visit Porsche only shops. Talk to everyone you can. Speaking of which, I think Adam from Unobtanium has a 77 going on ebay as we speak.

That BAT car for $80K went for all the money, but it was a beaut. Personally I'd rather have a really nice SC for that kind of dough.
And if you have to ask if you can afford it, well....depends.

Good luck and welcome to PPMF!

Nick

[kc911s]

5 years? Get out the magic 8 ball. Who knows. Some people are buying them up for a stable place to hide money. A lot of no sales on BAT could show market is cooling due to crypto and real estate gains slowing down. $5/gallon diesel is going to put us in uncharted territory and who knows there could be deals to be had. If you are really interested keep your eye out and will know when the timing is right. If your heart is set on a odd ball color you could be pricing yourself out of the game before you even enter the ring.

[vanuber]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

5 years is a lifetime in this market.

Originally Posted by kc911s

5 years? Get out the magic 8 ball. Who knows.

I realize the past 5 years has been a lifetime in the current market, but not so sure about the next 5. It’s been an extraordinary few years with inflation at a 40-year high, market bubbles, etc. In fact, you could say that now is the worst time to buy and 5 years might allow the market to normalize, or not, but who knows.

I guess my first question is somewhat irrelevant But future pricing is certainly part of the discussion as I don’t have the current means or a time machine.

[vanuber]

Originally Posted by JettandTye

I am biased as we own a 77 targa in coppa. That said, once these cars are dialed in they are very reliable and not too expensive to maintain. The dialing in part can be expensive depending on the historical care of the car.

Lucky you with that Coppa Targa. Good to hear about reliability. I hope to find a car that is already dialed-in which would add to the initial expense but hopefully lower the maintenance cost.

Originally Posted by NYNick

Where are you located? The early "galvanized body" thing is almost not even worth talking about in the rust belt.

Your second and third points above are the best way to find a car. Join PCA. Go to PCA events. Visit Porsche only shops. Talk to everyone you can. Speaking of which, I think Adam from Unobtanium has a 77 going on ebay as we speak.

That BAT car for $80K went for all the money, but it was a beaut. Personally I'd rather have a really nice SC for that kind of dough.
And if you have to ask if you can afford it, well....depends.

Good luck and welcome to PPMF!

Nick

Thanks for the welcome! I am in Virginia. I have a very nice ’85 VW Westy that came from Cali two years ago and I can already see some rust accelerating in the Virginia humidity (it’s never seen road salt either). Good call on being cautious of rust.

Very glad to hear the PCA is not just fluff. I was aware of them but not sure what they had to offer. I will certainly dig into this as well and other local Porsche resources. Saw that Unobtanium ’77 in another post. Beautiful!

The upfront cost I can realize. I am more concerned about ongoing maintenance costs, insurance, etc. that may be hidden. But yeah, sometimes hard to justify a large leisure purchase no matter your worth!

[NYNick]

Buy the best car you can afford. The maintenance costs are all associated with this. A car "needing nothing" basically doesn't exist, but a well maintained example does.

They're old cars. They require maintenance.

[Bucketlist]

^^^^^^
All of this plus.....no car is perfect, not even a new one.
I think you should be able to do most of the work yourself.
A Porsche could be an investment but most likely it could be a money pit. Either way its just a hobby....like golf.

[motorstereo]

Vanuber--Do you work on your VW and BMWs? If you maintain those, I think you will find most air cooled 911 maintenance is doable with a good tool kit, the Bentley manual, and the Pelican technical forum. There are lots of good videos up on youtube now as well (check out this channel for invaluable Bosch CIS fuel injection info: https://youtu.be/slCzVrrST2Q ). I'd love to see pix of your R75/5 BMWs! I'm going to look at a /5 ('73 long wheelbase, with touring tank, same owner since '92) for a friend this morning as it turns out.

[vanuber]

Originally Posted by motorstereo

Vanuber--Do you work on your VW and BMWs? If you maintain those, I think you will find most air cooled 911 maintenance is doable with a good tool kit, the Bentley manual, and the Pelican technical forum. There are lots of good videos up on youtube now as well (check out this channel for invaluable Bosch CIS fuel injection info: https://youtu.be/slCzVrrST2Q ). I'd love to see pix of your R75/5 BMWs! I'm going to look at a /5 ('73 long wheelbase, with touring tank, same owner since '92) for a friend this morning as it turns out.

Thanks for the reply. I do enjoy working on my /5's and Westy. It's great to hear from a few people now that maintenance is low and possible for the amateur mechanic. How about parts cost?

My '71 /5 is fully restored with a touring tank. The '72 has a toaster and is more of a rider. I've owned a lot of bikes over the years, including a modern BMW, and boy do I love these /5's. So fun to work on and ride.

Here's a pic of my rider and the Westy (I don't have a good one of the '71 on hand):

[davehg]

I bought my 74 911s, one owner, numbers matching car in April for $65k.it had 15k miles on a rebuild engine and trans. I thought I paid on the high side until I saw what others were selling for. I was able to source a newly built Euro RS MFI 2.7 and a set of period correct sport seats and will convert to my all time favorite - a narrow body 2.7 MFI , essentially a 74 version of the current GT3 RS Touring. I’ll crate and store the original engine and seats.

Unless the engine has been rebuilt or converted to a 3 liter, I’d look for a 74 911s. They are low production - less made than the revered Carerra model. Narrow body and Euro bumpers look clean. Fewer of the issues that plagued the 75-77 engines, as the 74 cars had none of the thermal reactors or 5 blade fans that enabled the heat these engines are faulted for, and which resulted in warped cases, pulled head studs, and leaks, all of which cost $$ to fix when rebuilding. The later 75-77s make less power too, as does the bass 74 911 with its lower compression engine. If you have to have an early G body, the 74 is the sweet spot.

Also, if you do decide to hot rod or tweak the engine, you won’t have the smog certification requirements in CA with a 74, which makes your investment a bit better long term. Just know the 2.7 can’t be cheaply modded to make more power. You need a new cam, RS pistons, and a carb setup to achieve more power, and that’s assuming you don’t have a big amount of machine work.

I’ve had a 2.7 from a 76 911 that I had rebuilt as a twin plug for my 914 - the engine case required lots of machine shop work to correct. I’d be realistic about your rebuild costs if you get an unrestored 2.7 that suffered heat issues - many did. A 2.7 costs as much and a tad more to rebuild and make power as does a 3.0 or 3.2. My twin plug build was easily $25k when all done, though the twin plug option added about $5k.

The CIS systems of the 2.7 are nice but can be fiddly if not addressed - vacuum leaks are a pain. Mine runs like a Swiss clock and returns 24-26mpg on the highway. A proper rebuilt 2.7 CIS runs great but won’t win any stoplight races. Quicker but not fast. But they are excellent everyday engines.

Many will push you to the later SC models, especially the 3.2. Great cars but not at all the same - heavier and less lively. I recently swapped with a friend’s 3.2 SC and both of us found my 74 to be the more entertaining and fun to drive car, even as it was slower and less planted. I have a 3.2 in my hot rod 914 and for the 911, I’ll take a hotrodded 2.7 or MFI version every day - it sound magnificent and revs higher than the 3.2.

Go for it but be prepared to wait for a good one and expect $55-70k for a well sorted example. Look for history and no rust, and a sunroof delete car. They are out there.

[Glenfield]

That’s a very nice looking ‘74 and great score on the MFI engine

[vanuber]

Originally Posted by davehg

I bought my 74 911s, one owner, numbers matching car in April for $65k.it had 15k miles on a rebuild engine and trans. I thought I paid on the high side until I saw what others were selling for. I was able to source a newly built Euro RS MFI 2.7 and a set of period correct sport seats and will convert to my all time favorite - a narrow body 2.7 MFI , essentially a 74 version of the current GT3 RS Touring. I’ll crate and store the original engine and seats.

Unless the engine has been rebuilt or converted to a 3 liter, I’d look for a 74 911s. They are low production - less made than the revered Carerra model. Narrow body and Euro bumpers look clean. Fewer of the issues that plagued the 75-77 engines, as the 74 cars had none of the thermal reactors or 5 blade fans that enabled the heat these engines are faulted for, and which resulted in warped cases, pulled head studs, and leaks, all of which cost $$ to fix when rebuilding. The later 75-77s make less power too, as does the bass 74 911 with its lower compression engine. If you have to have an early G body, the 74 is the sweet spot.

Also, if you do decide to hot rod or tweak the engine, you won’t have the smog certification requirements in CA with a 74, which makes your investment a bit better long term. Just know the 2.7 can’t be cheaply modded to make more power. You need a new cam, RS pistons, and a carb setup to achieve more power, and that’s assuming you don’t have a big amount of machine work.

I’ve had a 2.7 from a 76 911 that I had rebuilt as a twin plug for my 914 - the engine case required lots of machine shop work to correct. I’d be realistic about your rebuild costs if you get an unrestored 2.7 that suffered heat issues - many did. A 2.7 costs as much and a tad more to rebuild and make power as does a 3.0 or 3.2. My twin plug build was easily $25k when all done, though the twin plug option added about $5k.

The CIS systems of the 2.7 are nice but can be fiddly if not addressed - vacuum leaks are a pain. Mine runs like a Swiss clock and returns 24-26mpg on the highway. A proper rebuilt 2.7 CIS runs great but won’t win any stoplight races. Quicker but not fast. But they are excellent everyday engines.

Many will push you to the later SC models, especially the 3.2. Great cars but not at all the same - heavier and less lively. I recently swapped with a friend’s 3.2 SC and both of us found my 74 to be the more entertaining and fun to drive car, even as it was slower and less planted. I have a 3.2 in my hot rod 914 and for the 911, I’ll take a hotrodded 2.7 or MFI version every day - it sound magnificent and revs higher than the 3.2.

Go for it but be prepared to wait for a good one and expect $55-70k for a well sorted example. Look for history and no rust, and a sunroof delete car. They are out there.

Thanks for the reply. A lot of great data points there and you scored a beauty. I have certainly heard a number of folks saying to go with an SC. But, like you, I love the narrow body style, colors, classic longhood-ish look, and the light weight of the 2.7's. That's good info on the '74 versus the other models... sounds like the way to go. My only hesitation is the '74-75 lack the fully galvanized body. Maybe I am over emphasizing this as it would be garaged and never driven in the salt. But even with that I fear rust in the Virginia humidity. I see you're in the PNW; was this a concern?

After owning a number of vintage vehicles, I know investing more up front usually saves in the long run. I just hope that $50-75K range holds for a few years!

[andoni510]

I have a ‘77 in Sienna Metallic in the works. The engine is done and ready to go into the car. The chassis is currently in the paint shop getting a complete spray over. Interior is Leather in Cork with Sport Seats. Let me know if it interest you and can share Spec of the engine build.

[andoni510]

Here is a sample photo of the ‘77 Sienna Metallic when it’s done. 6/7x15 Cookie Cutters, Rear Euro narrow bumper pads and Euro H4 headlights. Although, mine will not have a passenger side Flag mirror as it came from the factory.

[mepstein]

“How can I put myself in a better position to purchase a solid car given the timeframe of 5+ years?”

Make more money.

[Marine Blue]

Suffice it to say, every model in the air cooled Porsche range has its charms as it relates to looks and driving experience. Something for everyone……and because of this I personally think at some point most air cooled examples will have a similar price range for well cared for examples. Of course the lower production, rare models will command higher prices than the average.

You’re taking the right approach focusing on the models that draw you in and then learning about them as much as possible.

When it comes time to purchase as most will say, buy the best example you can afford and set aside at least $10k to perform any immediate necessary repairs/upgrades. This number will adjust upwards as time passes so if you’re looking to purchase 10 years from now adjust the reserve money accordingly.

Get a PPI or at minimum have someone inspect that has knowledge of the example you’re looking at.

As far as sourcing a car, I’ve found that your approach will need to vary depending on the economy at the time of purchase. Currently it’s hard to purchase a nice example unless you’re constantly searching and responding immediately to ads. Even then there’s usually a line of buyers competing with you unless the car is priced at the high end of the market. I personally had talked to several friends in several parts of the country and mentioned I was looking for a 964 with specific color and condition requirements. I had also posted a WTB ad. In the end a friend stumbled on a 964 that was just dropped off at a dealer and sent me pics of it before it was listed anywhere. Right place right time. I bought the car before it came to market.

If the economy cools I would think a WTB ad would work well and you might find more availability as there will be fewer buyers.

Regardless keep padding your budget as I don’t think prices will come down much.

Enjoy the learning process and good luck with the search once you’ve focused on the model you want. They’re truly amazing and unique cars. Here’s mine, still a work in progress

[Glenfield]

I think you’re onto something re: the middies. No doubt on the rise also (especially the Californian smog legal years) but still an attractive entry point. It can be expensive to add power and lightness (beyond a point), but at least with a middie your starting with lightness and a very interesting period charm. Period charm is subjective I know, but sounds like you’re already there and I agree with you … speak to a few folks and see if you can drive some. I coveted an SC in black and love it but would be all over a mid year in bitter chocolate if it came up.

Don’t worry about galvanized. Won’t save you from all the places water and grime can get trapped on all of these cars. Just make sure it’s rust free out of the gates.

[vanuber]

Originally Posted by andoni510

I have a ‘77 in Sienna Metallic in the works. The engine is done and ready to go into the car. The chassis is currently in the paint shop getting a complete spray over. Interior is Leather in Cork with Sport Seats. Let me know if it interest you and can share Spec of the engine build.

Beautiful car. I will not be in a position to buy for a few years. Let me know if you want to hang onto it for me!. You're "Sondermodell" that was listed on BaT is also a gem.