Got Banned on BaT with This Informative Writeup About the 964s
 

BaT is such a rainbow, ra-ra, cheerleading crowd that I have been banned and blocked when I wrote the comment below:


"Personally, I abhor negative comments on BaT, however we seem to be in a time period that glosses over the 964 with half-baked romanticism and philosophy. This is not directed at the 964 presented here per say, but what people are buying. Since this particular example is a 1992, it's much better quality than earlier 964s but still there is to me a lot to be desired.

Watching the PCA 964 RS video proves this. I remember not 20 years ago the 964 was a car to stay away from - with good reason. They weren't considered good cars. From oil leaks to a no-gasket brilliance that Porsche engineers put into the engine the early cars did not fare well.

In the video they call the '80s a period of stagnation for Porsche. Maybe, but I still see it as Porsche's decade of refinement. The G-Body 911 was so good, simple and ahead of its time that it was refined in the 80s as an old blade, an old soft shoe, worn but incredible nonetheless.

People look at the 964 as this major leap forward. It was not. The world was in the midst of a massive world-wide recession that went from late 1989 (when the C4 was introduced to America) through the early 1990s. Cars in general did not do well.
Porsche was scrambling when they made the 964. You can see that the 964 leaves a lot to be desired (hence the Porsche rebate of $5K even when this car came out). The 964 was in essence a test bed where the 993 can be seen as refined and what the 964 should have been.

I had the opportunity to visit the Porsche factory in late 1992. The workers were seemed glum. There was no excitement. Just a sort of low-level fear that this may be the end of the great brand. This was an era of uncertainty for Porsche, and there were so many changes in the 964 (justified or survival for the 911) that the factory seemed depressed. Nothing was selling. 85% new was nothing to brag about - as Porsche realized all the handwork that went into a G-body was not sustainable or workable with the new laws. This is/was nothing to brag about.
I am just trying to tell people that in historical context, with a world-wide recession and no money, they did what they had to do with the 964. And that was get it out the door on a deadline.

Sorry, my comments are not to be negative, but realistic. These 964 RSs have very, very little in common with the old 70's RS, but more like an inexpensive marketing ploy to save money and move cars.
What is awesome about this car is that it was used for it's intended purpose - marketing or not - and was raced. The history is interesting. Whether that adds money, I have no idea. I suspect it does not."

WELL GUYS the 964 has it's place. I understand this.

I thought it was well written and informative. Last time I am posting on there. I should have learned my lesson when a Ferrari that I actually worked on and drove was known more by someone who never was even near the actual car.

Oh well.

They don’t want to hear none of that logical silliness. They are living the nostalgic fantasy. That’s what drives sales.

You're right Matt. I had forgotten. It's my mistake, but some days you feel like you gotta get the truth out there. But then again, my mistake.

Auction fell flat at $127K. Not that I wanted it to. I don't care. But the PCA video regarding how special these cars are made me want to act. There really isn't anything special about them.

I'll shut up now. Just one of those days.

What was the car? Was it an imported RS? Or was it an RSA?

It was an imported RS Clubsport from Germany that was ridden very hard and put away very wet. Not a single panel was/is straight. Things were cut that should not have been cut. Things were not right even from 100 feet away. But I never touched on those. Never mentioned them.

But I really wasn't going after the car - I could have on myriad issues.

It was this PCA video the seller posted of these dudes saying how awesome 964s were (compared to SCs and Carreras) and how much a great leap forward and amazing design Porsche 964s had compared to the "stagnant 1980s" that they referred to. Looking back it probably set me off.

So I was attacked by people saying that SCs and Carreras were jokes, had bad CIS (I actually never had an issue with any CIS for forty years, but I never touched on that and the fact that Carreras never did), and saying things like SCs had valve guide issues (which I have never, ever been aware of at all which is false) - and well, the general nonsense of defensive people attacking me and saying that I have no idea what I'm talking about which is fine. I blow that off like a paper hat. I don't need to have my ego stroked.

But BaT has become the United Strokes of America in Carlin speak. I am sure everyone here has known that, but it's rare that I even look at the site. The only reason I was looking at the site was that there is a Guzzi 1100 Sport for sale that was on my feed and I love that bike and have one myself. I love the Dr. John Guzzi's and eat it up.

So I just thought it was funny and before the banishment all my comments had to be moderated and checked.

The car went to $127k. I am surprised it went that high. It's a turd. I am aware that there are not that many, but rarity does not make something special. I heard the seller wanted $275K which to me is well, a very hilarious joke.



It's the fact that you can't say anything real on there without people losing it and you getting banned (I don't think my post was really that bad).

....And this is coming from a guy that 1) Loves Targas and 2) Has Arguably the worst 911 ever made - a '75 S 2.7 Targa. But to me, it's great and fine and has all the right smells and the right sounds.

Just a day when I should not have opened my mouth.

You shut your blasphemous mouth. I loved my 75 S targa, and would buy one again.

The root issue with BaT is they consider your honest and informative comment “not constructive “.

The late 80's were a horrendous time for Porsche. Most 911/964 fans have no memories of those days. I remember them well. Porsche and VW were suffering. They had the "unmitigated gaul" to charge more for a Clubsport (with less accessories, goddamn it!) than a normal 911. Personally, I secretly lusted after that car back in the day, but could barely afford any new vehicle, much less a 911.

Still, the 964 was the 912/914/Middie of its day. Ugly, slow, heavy and expensive. It seemed to be merely transitional: biding time in between the Carrera and the 993. It was the one of the dogs of the brand until the 996 took it's place in 1999. The RS was just one more marketing ploy to sell cars. Who knew what the future would bring for it and the Turbo?

I think the problem you had was you posted your opinion in the wrong place. BaT tries to protect its sellers, with good intentions. Bad mouthing a car you have no intention of buying is viewed (by them and others) as bad form.

I agree with your opinion. It was just the wrong forum to post it.

The 964, the bloated pig of the 911 family, was so unloved, for the reasons rightly noted by Sal, that they were still dirt cheap when the market tide was in full rise. They were so cheap that Singer bought them up just to throw much of it away and build a new car around the vin plate. Unfortunately, it was this activity that "reevaluated" the car into something people thought was worth paying actual money for.

Well we all have opinions as they say….

Times change and so do opinions. You may remember what slow, ugly, rusty POS 356's were. Look at them now.

It’s their site, their rules. I’m not usually a participant but they certainly have a lucrative business model.

They were a major transition point for Porsche. Just like the lately loved 996.

Singer need the transmission tunnel of the 964.

The real significance of the 964 was the 3.6l.


BaT ….. need to be informative without being critical

Thanks guys I appreciate all the comments and thanks for bringing me back down.

As usual, really appreciate this community and respect everyone's specialized knowledge.

This forum is still a special corner of the internet for me and one of the few places I feel that an opinion, idea, or otherwise rant can still be posted without everything collapsing.

Thanks again and I mean it.

the Ugly Duckling. haha
i prefer my lowly SC over the 964 that i previously owned.
the 964? bloated, overly complicated. and? no head gaskets, ffs.
i did not consider the 964 as being ugly. fwiw.

One thing I have never understood is the Targa hate. They are every bit as nice for a street car as a coupe, and if the top is done right at least as quiet. A Dino Targa and most convertible Ferraris or Jags, or anything always go for more than coupes yet 911 Targa are usually 20% or more less.
Yesterday on BAT an 89 low mileage Targa in excellent condition, barely got $74k when an 84 Coupe repainted went for $120k.
In my time I've had 3 coupes and 2 Targa, I've kept the 73 Targa as my favorite.
Open for therapy

The targa thing really depends on where you live. Today, it’s 85 and sunny but a flash storm blew in on my way back to my house. Torrential downpour within seconds and then sunny again. It’s been like that for a week here and sort of the norm this time of the year. So do I leave the top on all the time or risk packing it up and pulling it back out at a moments notice. I haven’t seen one at our shop that doesn’t leak at least a bit. Also, our shop is more outlaw/hot rod, so a non sunroof coupe just looks right for that type of car - in my opinion. Lastly, the market has spoken with their wallet. Though for buyers who like the targa’s, they are the financial winners.

I could definitely find a better way to spend 6 figures on an old car.

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale-dealer/1145395-1990-c4-targa-silver-silk-grey-very-rare-options-88-000-miles.html

Looks like a car Dwight Schrute would buy with his Christmas bonus.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1693167325.jpg

I don't blame them for banning you.
The 964 is what it is, I'm not saying you are wrong (or right for that matter) but I tend to agree with you. what I don't understand is why you would post that on an individuals for sale listing?? Clearly that is the wrong time and place for it, and as a seller I would be annoyed.


Comments like that are to be discussed at places like this, not in someones live auction.

Then where are they supposed to go? I thought BaT was the place for COMMENTS under an AUCTION.

I don't know who you are, but if you read my post, there was not a thing negative about the car but FACTS.

There were 81 posts of how great and amazing, and awesome and blistering 964s were and are.

I was the one guy who spoke from experience, knew the cars when new, knew they weren't and aren't that great, knew that the 964 RS and its variants were the same as a Carrera 2, that they marketed them with less things than a Carrera 2 for more money, even though it's the same same car with deletions, etc.

There is a time and place for it.

You can rag on any car, but honestly I did not think that BaT had gotten so over-the-top, out-of-control, with no comments even based on any reality (or even an alternate one). Two guys were dinging G-bodies with "bad CIS" on a Carrera (it did not even come with CIS) and "bad exhaust guides" on SCs - which never, ever had them to my knowledge.

So BaT makes a serious killing with 911 aircooled cars. Other people are able to insult, berate, and otherwise shred a car with little to no specialized knowledge, with no experience, with no insight or otherwise. They are not banned.

Sellers need to take it and be thick-skinned.

BaT is moving so far past any OBJECTIVE CRITICISM that the whole entire BaT community is emotional, sentimental with experiences linked so much so to personal preference that's it's one trans-continental snow job.

I have one thing to say to you. Good luck. And enjoy your Porsche self.

I'm a Targa guy like Matt. Love Targas. Would take a Targa over a coupe. I'm that guy.

This 964 is a little too Vader-Imperial Tie Fighter for me. Although I do like the wheels. For some reason they look OK on a 964.

Different strokes. I hate Targas, love cabs, maybe even more than coupes.

Wow. I am a cab guy - but for one year only. I have had this strong desire to own an '83. Would like the first year. I think they are big-time sleepers.

I have two Porsche's a 86 Coupe and a 2019 PDK Cabriolet.

The PDK Cabriolet is a perfect all-around driver due to the excellent engineering and construction of the convertible top.

I had an 87 Cab and I could not stand how noisy it was w/ the top up.

Without boring everyone with my car history, I've owned 4 water cooled cabs including a Turbo. I even tracked two of them at PCA DE's and many AX's.

I do not consider myself a "good" track driver. I'm way better than most people on the street, but just ok on the track. The Cabs were perfectly fine for my track talent and absolutely wonderful for the street.

There's nothing like a top down summer night.
Crap, I just realized I don't own a Cab.

I don’t care for the air cooled cabs very much. I’m a big fan of them water cooled. If I ever buy another 15-20 year old Porsche it will be a 997 cab or a 987-981 Boxster. Nothing like a convertible. I sometimes even miss that gutless little 986 I got from Mac. With a short final drive and lsd it really woke up.

I’m not sure what OP thought he was doing when he posted that on BaT. Despite his comment above to the contrary, it’s a collection of his opinions about 964s and his impression of how people felt about them at the time. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the car on sale, and I’m not surprised that it ended up getting removed.

OP gives vibes of PCA Boomers that show up to meets in their 993/997 wearing New Balance shoes with white tube socks and look down on everyone with "lesser" cars.

The 964 is an amazing 911 and the market now reflects it. Stay mad.

Try explaining that to my hair conscience, hat averse wife.

I feel ya, I miss my SC cab.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1694569810.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1694569810.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1694569810.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1694569810.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1694569810.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1694569810.jpg
I also agree with you on the 964,

Never understood the 911 cab hate; doesn’t happen with other marques.

The auction with community comments format gives buyers confidence because they can gauge sentiment of others about the car. If those comments aren't a representative sample of people's actual opinions then it's misleading to buyers. And if people hold back from telling the truth then it's not a community, because in a community people strive for fairness to all members by telling the truth.

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

Water cooled Cabs with the windows up and the rear windscreen are almost wind proof. Almost.

Too much ado about the 964RS
 

SalParadise, I don't have much to add regarding your comments about the 964.

I did look up the technical specs because I vaguely remembered but wanted to confirm.

Tl;dr: the only distinction, in terms of engine internals of the 964RS vs. the standard Carrera 2 (and 4) is that while the pistons and cylinders are exactly the same, they were weight matched to a tighter weight tolerance across all 6. I don't even know if you would call that "blue printing" in 'muerican engine building parlance. Anyway I concur with your point that the "RS" in 964RS is mostly hype that has been amplified by BAT.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1694624938.png

I was under the impression that the 964RS was lighter and geared differently also.
I vaguely remember being told about "Swiss" gearing. I might be mistaken, and this only was referred to as in the US Cup Cars.

The gearing is different. I don’t really consider it superior though. It’s kind of funky, to be honest.

To me it smelled awfully close to the Carrera Clubsport before it, where they charged more for less. Let's remember they were struggling in the marketplace.

Here's the word coming from a guy who wears a Nickleback Tour shirt and a Von Dutch hat to Cars and Coffee.

You give the impression that you're broke and prefer all of Porsche's dark horse cars (ie cheap cars) that kind of stink. 944s and Boxsters and 996's. So it would be natural for you to choose the worst 911 they ever made. Would be natural.

What you remind me is of is a poseur who really can't play in a man's game. Someone who likes to post half-baked opinions about things that they don't even know about and grab on to some idea whether or not it's based in reality and run with it. Someone who likes to follow the latest trends.

But then again, I wouldn't know. I've never attended a meet. I'm not even close to being a Boomer.

Stay cheap my friend, stay cheap.