'80 911SC vs. G50 Carrera

[ICD]

I am close to purchasing an '80 911sc and I need advice. The car is a PCA member car, same owner and mechanic for 10 years. Excellent original paint, nice interior. Rebuild at 65k miles with new head studs, 142k current miles. Needs about $1200 worth of work based on the PPI. Price is $13k.

It seems like a fair price, but I wanted a G50 car and high mile examples of the G50 car go for around $15 or $16. So the question is this: is a the low end of the G50 scale still better than an SC?

What do you think of the price?

[GothingNC]

SC sounds like a fair price.

but, you are interested in a Carrera with a G-50 so I would keep looking instead of settling unless you really like the SC in question.

IMHO probably be better of in a high end good condition SC then a Low end Carrera that needs quite a bit of work.

[Halm]

When I sold my '70 E last winter, I was just like you and thought I wanted a G50. Then I drove a couple examples. Yes, they shifted great, but each one felt a little different than the previous one. And none of them felt particularly good. Maybe it was just in relation to the hotrod 2.7 motor that was in the '70????

I then found a '80 SC that also had a full rebuild 30k miles ago. That was all I needed to buy it. I simply could not bring myself to buy a car I knew would need a top-end or full rebuild to really make it right. And FWIW I have put about $1500 into it.

Go for the SC. You won't be disappointed.

[umfan866]

I am going through the same sort of decision. There are a couple of high-mileage G50 cars near me, one with 148k and a few issues selling for $16k, and a 230k one for $13k. However say tehe one for 16k soon needs a top-end for 4k and the one for 13k needs a 10k rebuild, then you have spent either $20k-$23k already. Now you have a car with a high-mileage chassis, and all sorts of other parts worn out (or about to), and if you want to resell nobody wants to buy a car with high miles on the chassis even if a rebuild has taken place! In this case, you'd be better off having bought a nice < 100k mileage G50 in pretty mint (not showroom) condition because you can drive it without worrying about rebuilds, you don't have to worry as much about other stuff going wrong, and then you can re-sell it later to willling buyers, say with 110 or 120k on the clock, and its still relatively low-mileage.

The same thing would apply with your SC, just change the numbers. You buy the low-mileage well-sorted out SC for 13k, drive it a while etc without to much worry, then sell right when people start getting as re-interested in SC's as they are about long-hoods now.

I can't believe I am typing this, because my emotions want you (and me) to go for the G50 car, it just has so much more appeal and people rave about it so much. But consider that a really well-cared for 915 tranny shifts decently, and that the car is basically the same car otherwise with a slightly bigger engine-- the difference between the SC and G-50s are not that huge. Maybe a nice low-mileage 3.2 (but non-G50) for 13k is a sweet spot here, I have seen a bunch of those around if you look carefully. Good luck.

[seventythree]

A Carrera, G50 or not, is a much better car than an SC. Mainly due to Motronic vs. CIS. Better brakes and more torque (bigger displacement) are just added gravy on the top.

If you are on a tight budget, your delima should be nicer 915 Carrera vs. rougher G50.

Just MHO.

Regards

[racer]

Originally posted by seventythree
A Carrera, G50 or not, is a much better car than an SC. Mainly due to Motronic vs. CIS. Better brakes and more torque (bigger displacement) are just added gravy on the top.

If you are on a tight budget, your delima should be nicer 915 Carrera vs. rougher G50.

Just MHO.

Regards

I would take exception to some of that. While one should always be encouraged to buy the newest Porsche you can afford, SC's are not exactly chopped liver compared to the 3.2 Carerra. Some might argue the reason the Carerra's needed the 3.2 and larger brakes (and they are only marginall ythicker rotors, the calipers and pads are the same size) was because they were getting heavier and heavier compared to the SC.

As Colin Chapman once said (or is loosly paraphrased as saying) to Go faster, simply add lightness!

In the end, IDC, if you want for a G50 car, be patient and one will come to market for you!

[hytem]

SCs seem to be among the better buys out there right now, in the $10-15K range, depending mainly on mileage. The late 80s cars are selling for closer to $20K, so there may be better value in a good SC. For a 142K mileage SC, I would look for closer to $10K than $15K. Maybe $11K.

[MRM]

In my opinion you are comparing apples to oranges. Also in my opinion, that's not such a great deal for an SC with that many miles on it and needing more than a thousand dollars in PPI money to get it up to snuff.

I think you are better off stretching your budget to get a G50 Carrera rather than settling for an SC. Obviously a G50 Carrera is what you want. Why buy an SC and always wish you had a G50 car until the day you trade it in for one? Fall is just starting, you should be able to find a steal of a deal if you wait and look. Come January someone will be paying you to take a nice Carrera away!

To answer your direct question, as my final opinion, the low end of G50 Carreras is in the mid to high teens. 915 Carreras can be had for starting at maybe a little under $15,000. SCs start at $10,000, or maybe a little less. Almost perfect SCs should be about $15,000, but you know there are a lot of people asking for more. Perhaps not as many are receiving more.

So the difference between the SC you are are looking at and a low end G50 car is maybe $5,000. Not a small amount of change. But probably worth it when spread out over the time you'll own the car.

I strongly advise you to follow Bruce Anderson's advice and buy the newest and nicest example you can find. That is, the best combination of newness and good condition that you can afford.

Or, you can do what I did and buy the first 911 you looked at seriously, call it love at first sight, and excuse any imperfections because that is the way the love of your life is. And I wouldn't have it any other way. Who needs to shift quickly into second anyway? Drag racing is for kids in cheap American steel, right?

[ICD]

OK, I traveled to see the SC today and the exterior and orginal paint is almost perfect. Interior is about a 9. It is weeping some oil from around the transmission. Drives tight. Acceleration and shifting is not that different from the 3 Carreras I drove yesterday ('84 and two '87's). Clutch engages very close to the floor. Does that mean clutch time?

[umfan866]

That sounds pretty positive. I am re-reading your original post also and it sounds like you would have a really clean car on your hands.

I will let someone else answer the clutch question. A 78 SC that I drove had the clutch engage almost near the top, so the opposite, but it made me wonder the same thing -- if that means it is clutch time.

I think in this situation if you like the car, your best bet now is to bargain hard to get that 1k of repairs off the price so go from 13k to 12k. If the person is a PCA member and you are new to Porsche's etc that may go in your favor because he/she knows it is going to a good home, someone who cares etc.

The reason I am encouraging you to do this is because right now the market is soft and buyers have a slight edge. People are trying to store
their cars for fall/winter/rainy season and they may have picked up another project and only room for one in the garage. With the economy good news one day, and bad news the next, the luxury car market is a little soft too. I think that despite Excellence saying prices are up yada yada the fact is that ..older cars in general depreciate, SCs are a dime-a-dozen, especially worn out ones, and the attention is on the G50's.
Frankly I think even the G50's are in reality sell for substantially less than 20k. I know three cases of G50 cars that either did sell or would sell between 15-16k right now. Granted those care are 100-150k mile mark and may need a top-end, but they are all respectable g50 examples. So an SC in nice condition with recent engine work that shifts well is worth almost as much but I would still try to go for 12k instead of 13k.

[ToddM]

First off, I 100% disagree with Bruce Anderson's "buy the newest you can afford". The later cars have a MUCH higher cost of ownership that far outweighs their cost of entry. I am speaking from personal experience. I will never again own a 964 or a 993 and I would NEVER own a 996/997 out of warranty. Newer doesn't mean better.

Price something stupid like a windsheild for an 82, 89, 92, 96, and 2006 and you'll catch my drift.

A G50 3.2 Carrera will run you a good $9K more then an SC in the same condition. With that 9K you can make mods to an SC that will comletely smoke a G50 3.2 Carrera.

This is the way *I* look at it.

I have owned 2 SCs and they are the most bulletproof 911 ever. The downsie of them is that you know to know how to be nice to a 915 transmission and the CIS injection has become a liabiliy with today's horsepiss gasoline. If you live in a state where you can still get good gas then you don't need to worry about it.

I have also owned 2 G50 3.2 Carreras and almost every single will will need a valve guide job if they have not had it already due to the premature wear issue. I have seen this more and more and more. This will run you at least $6K to fix and if you wanted to really do it right and do the stuff you should do since you're in there, it would be $9K when all was said and done.

It depends on what is important to you. Everyting works beter on a Carrera.. the shifting, all the switches, fit & finish are better. Motronic is a much better system than CIS. Dont forget, you can get a 84-86 Carrera, have Motronic, and just not have the G50.

If you don't care about these creature comforts, want a dependable tank of a car which has all the same capabilities, the SC is your ticket.

The 915 is a light tranmission, easier to work on, and the gear sets are 2/3rds the cost of a G50 gear set. all you have to do in return is be nice to it. There are also lots if good aftermarket parts for the 915... like the Wevo classic shift kit which has a return-to-center feature and it looks stock.

I just went though this same thing myself (again!) and came across an 82 with a 92 3.6L engine transplant that already had the CA state emissions referee sticker for almost the same price as the tranplant cost itself and I jumped all over it. Best of both worlds.

My recommendation is to find the right ***example*** of what you are looking for between 78-89.

This is going to be YOUR car and you are the one who has to be happy with it.

Best of luck on your search!

[seventythree]

Now, I am a little confused here, ToddM.
In your reply, the only malady you sited for Carrera and later cars was the dreaded valve guide issue, which I concur with; Carreras, 964s and 993s can be afflicted by it. Otherwise, you raved about their improved electronics, switch-ware, and fit and finish in general.
Then you called the SC a bulletproof car, mainly because of the 3.0L CIS engine (although the 3.0L has been known to have issues with broken head studs $$).
Then why is it that you ended up with a hybrid of the worst components. The admittedly inferior everything else of an SC, coupled with an engine that most definitely, in your own words, will need the dreaded $9K valve job!

Just wondering.

BTW, I have owned CIS and Motronic cars, Porsches, BMWs, and Mercedes, which I drove and personally maintained for a combined mileage of well over 800,000 miles. When I sold my 85 Carrera, it had 236,000 miles and no engine work.

Once again, in my experience, for lots of driving, the Carrera is much superior to the SC. Not much faster, not much quicker. Simply, much more drivable, with significantly better fuel economy.

JMHO.

[ICD]

Well I passed on the SC this weekend. It was a very nice car and drove well, but I found rust on the door pillar and along the bottom door jamb (panel below the botttom of the door). I did not want to take chances with how far it could go, as it was clear the sunroof seals had failed and
discolored the headliner. No telling how far the moisture had made its way through. My main worry was rust from the inside out.

Seller would not budge on the price and I added up around $2000 repairs without the rust fix.

Thanks for all the advice. In my evaluating four different cars in the past week I can tell you that the two G50 cars did not shift all that much better than the well maintained 915 cars. Just my take on it.

[speedracer]

No worries ICD, you will find the right car in due time... It took me a LLLOOONNGGG time to find mine and I am glad I waited for the "one".

[ToddM]

It depends on what ICD is looking for, what is important to him, how the car is to be used, and his budget.

78-89 are ALL good years in my opinion and I personally would purchase a 911 from this entire time frame if it was the right example.

What is the reason for picking a late Carrera over an SC? Is it the 3.2L engine? Is it the G50? or is it fit & finish?

If it is 2 or 3 of these, then definitely keep looking for a Carrera. If it is only one of these things, then you might want to reconsider.

Rust? Yikes, Where was this car from?

As far as broken head studs... I had driven 150K on one of the SCs I owned and 30K miles on the other, both had no engine work whatsoever oher than a valve adjustments. I redline my cars every day in 2nd gear for 30 minutes straight going to work and again from work on a mountain backroad. The only failure I ever had was of a Bosch unit that I promptly replaced with an MSD AL6. One SC was an 81 and one was an 82. I've heard of the problem but myself nor anybody I know have ever experienced it... and I know a lot of SC owners.

[Rockafella]

My $0.02: Think of this, ask anyone what they like and it's what they have at that moment in time. Your best answers are from owners with both of what you are considering. I don't have a G50, but I have a 3.2 Carrera and an SC.

Having said that, they are different cars but not different enough to lose sleep over. Figure out why you want the car as ToddM points out.

You want to impress the neighbors? Buy a Boxster
You want to have a more powerful, more refined 911, but still have the 80s look? Get a Carrera
You want to have an authentic 911 experience without huge risk, but don't care that much about creature comfort? An SC is for you.

I would buy the cleanest car my budget allows if I am not set on an SC v Carrera. Really now, you would buy a rougher G50 car because everyone says their nice? Personally, I try not to own junk, no matter how pedigreed.

You've made it this far, so let me tell you what I'd pick if I were you. Drive it to work, cruise it on weekends, Carrera. Tinker, shine it up, and possibly run it hard, SC. Looking for dates...seriously, get a boxster. 80s 911s, both SCs and Carreras are still an enthusiast item. The general public sees them as old cars.

Oh, and abused Porsches end in tears. One of the best driving cars I've owned was an SC with 190k on the clock. It was taken care of an ran great. I've seen a lot of sad "low miles" cars waiting to make some first owner a 911 hater.

And don't shop forever. You won't find the "perfect" car right away. The perfect car is the one you make.......it's the journey of ownership you will enjoy.

[ToddM]

Rackafella,

Ever drive Calaveras Rd/84? Thats a good one if you don't mind dodging death often. 1 1/2 lane with no divider line, 2 way traffic. Reservoir cliff on one side, hillface on the other.

The Niles Canyon/84 side is also nice but a lot more open & tame.

There's a lot of truth to somebody's favorite being whatever they own now. I think most P guys have owned several P cars and came back to whatever vintage did it for them.

I usually have two cars and get rid of one per year. I've had just about eveything. I think the 87-89 G50 Carrera is the best 911 ever made as far as a daily driver & cost of ownership once you get past the valvue guide problem (buy one already done). If I had to pick one, that is what I'd own.

But the best ones *for me* have been SCs because I am a very hard on the car. They are light and easy to work on and with the money you save over a G50 Carrera, you can get a ton of upgrades and have a completely sorted street weapon.

If you are trying to impress people, then Bruce Andersons "buy the newest you can afford" makes a lot of sense.

[umfan866]

Uh if you are trying to impress people, buy a Cayman.

Also I disagree that older 911's are seen as old cars.
Before I started surfing the Porsche forums, all I knew
about 911's was the unique pear shape of a 911. I
could not have made out the difference between a
911, 993, 964, 996. The shape is so recognizable that
I think people are impressed no matter that the year.
Time to get a 76 912e with superb paint and change
the decklid...

[ToddM]

That was true up until 98 when the 911 was replaced with the 996. They definitely are showing their age now... what I mean is that the old ones are beautiful and the new ones look like a$$ in the styling and character department.

[umfan866]

agreed that the 996 is different enough that it may be discernable to the casual person as being newer.

Getting back to the SC vs G50 debate, I have identified a 78 SC red/black with 152 miles and an 3.2 G-50 Carrera with 148,000.
The former has few records but runs strong, the later has many records back to about 93 and no record of any engine work (but clutch was done). The SC is selling for $8,200, and a 3.2 g60 is selling for twice the price $16-$18k. The SC has SSI headers and feels way more responsive and powerful (but would be a pain to get through smog I'd have to swap to a stock exhaust now and every 2 years). The carrera is a lot more refined
however it doesn't feel very powerful it is 100% stock (at least if you don't rev the heck out of it). My instincts are to get the SC however it does need a brake job and some rear seats installed, fuchs eventually (has c2 wheels now) and on the Carrera it is pretty much turn the key except it needs the fuchs to be refinished ..so what is the better "deal"?