1983 911SC - Opinions Please!

[mldmotorwerks]

Hi, new to the forum guys. Looking at a 1983 911 sc. I am not a Porsche expert by any means, know a little about them so looking for opinions from the forum crowd.

Car is original color but has been repainted, I would call the job a solid 9/10... very very nice looking in person. Odometer shows only 33k miles... It has the big aftermarket spoiler but also comes with the oem whale tail. Interior appears to have been redone in two tone leather. It almost appears factory however and shows very very nice. The motor was sent out for a rebuild/freshening up and was modified at the time. It now is carburated and owner claims engine builder added 80hp. Motor does sound very healthy and car is very powerful. The car has many other performance parts added as well like ignition and exhaust components. The wheels and spoiler may not be everyones cup of tea here I understand but those can easily be changed. To sum it up after my first checking out of the car... its a really nice well put together car that has pretty much been entirely gone through, nothing feels old and weathered or janky... My questions:

-this car would have originally had fuel injection correct? It being converted to the 3 barrel weber carbs, is this a plus or a negative?

-the vin tag looks off, I included a picture, its like a sticker over the original one that looks as if it was added at some point... anyone seen this before?

-heres the big one.... What do you guys think a 911 like this is worth? These cars seem to have drastically sky rocketed in value over the last decade.

PS. that 911SC graphic on the lower rocker area is just hand painted like pinstriping... it will rub right off. It also has newer style mirrors, and working ac.

[johnvan8]

Are you going to be able to smog it where you live? I don't think any smog state will let a carbed car pass... I would take the claimed 80hp gain with a BIG grain of salt.

[mldmotorwerks]

Originally Posted by johnvan8

Are you going to be able to smog it where you live? I don't think any smog state will let a carbed car pass... I would take the claimed 80hp gain with a BIG grain of salt.

We have no smog or any regulations like that here. Isn't it pretty common for people to ditch the fuel injection on these and go carb?

[sm70911]

First off its a euro car so the HP with the CIS would have been 205. The sticker in the door is the import info for when the car was bought in. Looks like it was bought in to a dealer. Does he have the paperwork and how much history is there ?

Yes PMOs can add HP. depends on the rest of the steup can you tell us more about that ?
Engine compartment looks like a bit of a mess. I dont see any heater hose but also doesnt look like the heat has been backdated
Wiring to the coil & dizzy, looks like a mess to me but I will let the better educated PMO'd SC owners help ypu with that. AC looks updated to R134

Speedo swap when was that done ? How many miles on the car in Europe ?
Rear tail lights have been swapped, updated Carrera front valance

Paint looks like meteor metallic

Interior sport seats are good. Personally i dont like the two tone, of the CF dash plate, looks ricer to me. Wheels / tail are ugly.

For me it would depend on how much history and what hes asking. What do you guys think a 911 like this is worth? These cars seem to have drastically sky rocketed in value over the last decade.
Are you looking to make an investment or do you want a 911SC ?

[COLB]

I think this car falls in the $15-18k range, depending on the quality of the carb conversion, head studs, and suspension. As mentioned, the wiring appearance raises questions about the condition of the harness.

Maybe $20-22k if the A/C works, the heater is fixed, and wheels, tail, and other cosmetics are sorted to more original trim.

If it checks out mechanically, and you like the appearance, it might be a good bargain.

[CountD]

Originally Posted by COLB

I think this car falls in the $15-18k range, depending on the quality of the carb conversion, head studs, and suspension.

AND the most important part - the quality of the actual EPA and DOT conversion work that was/was not done to it when it was imported. Door beams, ride height in some circumstances, lights (wiring), cat, etc. Check on this stuff. Also check with your insurance company as well.

That's some wing...

[deathpunk dan]

80 hp is only going to happen if it had 0 compression in a cylinder or two prior to the rebuild...

[mldmotorwerks]

Originally Posted by sm70911

First off its a euro car so the HP with the CIS would have been 205. The sticker in the door is the import info for when the car was bought in. Looks like it was bought in to a dealer. Does he have the paperwork and how much history is there ?

Yes PMOs can add HP. depends on the rest of the steup can you tell us more about that ?
Engine compartment looks like a bit of a mess. I dont see any heater hose but also doesnt look like the heat has been backdated
Wiring to the coil & dizzy, looks like a mess to me but I will let the better educated PMO'd SC owners help ypu with that. AC looks updated to R134

Speedo swap when was that done ? How many miles on the car in Europe ?
Rear tail lights have been swapped, updated Carrera front valance

Paint looks like meteor metallic

Interior sport seats are good. Personally i dont like the two tone, of the CF dash plate, looks ricer to me. Wheels / tail are ugly.

For me it would depend on how much history and what hes asking. What do you guys think a 911 like this is worth? These cars seem to have drastically sky rocketed in value over the last decade.
Are you looking to make an investment or do you want a 911SC ?

Thanks for all this info. The current owner is not the owner who brought it into the country so he has no knowledge. Last owner has no previous info except for the receipt for rebuild of the engine. He spent upwards of 10k doing that.

Now here is the kicker..... The motor/trans was sent out to Motormeister and gone through. Now I am well aware that that company has a HORRIBLE reputation on these boards and has now gone out of business. The motor has less than 1000 miles on it since rebuild... runs absolutely great. Leaks a wee bit of oil from the underside and puffs some blue smoke on startup for literally two seconds.

I am sure everyone here will rip the car apart now after that bit of info. Lol.

Can you explain the heat setup alittle better? What is backdating?

[trader220]

I agree with Dan, the odds of adding 80 bhp to that motor are basically zero without adding forced induction or a big bump in displacement. Who built the motor? Was it a real rebuild or just a generic "refresh" which could mean anything.

How is the gearbox, any synchro issues?

Looking at the front end, those headlights are not correct for a ZZZ (row car) and as someone else said the front valance is from a later Carrera. Was the car hit in the front?

Forget the 33k miles its not accurate, as someone else mentioned that car came from the factory with a speedo that read in KMH and KM's.

The interior looks nice and straight.

That wing is just silly and the later model wheels do too IMO.

Swap out the wing, get a set of fuchs or fuchs styled repros and it will mostly likely sell a lot quicker and a bit higher. Find out the answers to the questions on the motor and the front end and now you're talking.

Looks like you're a dealer or a shop based on your screen name, are you priming the pump here for a sale?

As it sits ... 14 to 16 maybe a bit more.... with a little work and some actual answers to the questions maybe 18 to 22?

[trader220]

Ooops all bets are off now that its a MM car

[mldmotorwerks]

I am a dealer but looking at this one for myself.

Due to the MM motor would you guys completely write this car off? I mean its still a clean fun driver, and at this time it runs absolutely great.

[biosurfer1]

Completely write it off? No, but I'd sure leave a BIG cushion on the price to deal with the probable engine failure to come. If it doesn't happen, consider yourself lucky and buy a lotto ticket or two.

[COLB]

Did MM do the original carb conversion and rebuild or did they "go through it" subsequently?

A motor less than 1000 miles out of rebuild should not be leaking oil at all -- unless it has sat for a long time, allowing weeping from valve cover gaskets or other perishable rubber.

I would downgrade my estimate to 14-15k given the dubious nature of the "rebuild" and the other cosmetic questions. MM doesn't make the car worthless, but definitely discounts the value adjustment for motor work.

After 25 years I didn't think the ROW/grey market issues mattered anymore -- unless the modifications were botched at the time. For ownership and registration purposes, does it matter whether a car built in 1983 was properly "federalized"? Like smog issues, maybe that varies by state?

By the way -- for the original poster -- if you are looking to set a value to resell this car (maybe taken as a trade in?) you should just be upfront about that. If you are looking at a flip, most people here understand that, provided you are honest about it, and are actually adding some value to the car -- rather than ripping off Uncle Joe's widow.

Spend the money to get a Porsche expert run a full up pre-purchase inspection. A compression & leakdown test, plus inspection of the headstuds should be part of that, and will tell you whether the car is viable.

If the engine is healthy, and you could get the car for $12,500-13,000, you could easily polish some money into it by putting on some 16" Fuchs wheels (maybe $750 + tires) and source & paint a standard rear deck (~$500) to replace the tail. Selling the two tails and the front spoiler would even defray your cost a fair bit.

Sort the wiring and the parts to make the heater work -- it is all doable for maybe $2000-2500.

Then you could price at $18,500, and sell at $17,000 and make a little money.

Or have a nice, attractive driver if that is really your intent.

But realize, this is almost certainly not a 911SC that is going to readily sell for over $20k.

[mldmotorwerks]

It was rebuilt over 5 yrs ago actually. Its a straight car. I would think that if the mileage was accurate it would be worth far north of 20k. The underbody is very clean.

[COLB]

A clean, unwrecked, high quality repainted 83 911SC -- all original with proper fuel injection and sound engine & transmission (rebuilt or not) and documented 33k miles is almost certainly worth over $30k. Maybe over $40k.

But this is not that car, for all the reasons mentioned.

As a European conversion, the speedo has been swapped -- so the mileage unverifiable, and therefor NOT original miles. Unless you have the original speedo & an affidavit from the conversion to go with it.

BTW -- see this thread:

Should a ROW import have an odometer disclosure sticker or any documents needed?

If the coversion was thorough, the mileage at conversion could be on a sticker on the back of the odometer. But that does not seem to be universal, or even common.

[mldmotorwerks]

Originally Posted by COLB

A clean, unwrecked, high quality repainted 83 911SC -- all original with proper fuel injection and sound engine & transmission (rebuilt or not) and documented 33k miles is almost certainly worth over $30k.

But this is not that car, for all the reasons mentioned.

As a European conversion, the speedo has been swapped -- so the mileage unverifiable, and therefor NOT original miles. Unless you have the original speedo & an affidavit from the conversion to go with it.

Ya... makes sense.

So what is a great condition, great running, nicely put together, fun little 911 like this worth? I personally like all the mods and the look of the car. I would swap to some fuchs and put the original whale tail back on.

[Josh D]

Just as another point of reference regarding the speedo, I have an '80 RoW that has a 0-150 MPH speedo that I was always curious if original or swapped when imported.

Recently, the odo drive gear stripped and I ordered the correct one for the US spec car, figuring the speedo had been swapped out. After dissassembly, it was the wrong gear. It required the gear for the Euro spec car. On the back of the speedo face was written the date of June '85 0-150 in pencil. The documents I have show that was when the car was gray market imported.

So, in a nut shell, the speedo/odometer were original to the car, but the speedo face plate had been changed to reflect MPH.

[wportervt]

Originally Posted by Josh D

Just as another point of reference regarding the speedo, I have an '80 RoW that has a 0-150 MPH speedo that I was always curious if original or swapped when imported.

Recently, the odo drive gear stripped and I ordered the correct one for the US spec car, figuring the speedo had been swapped out. After dissassembly, it was the wrong gear. It required the gear for the Euro spec car. On the back of the speedo face was written the date of June '85 0-150 in pencil. The documents I have show that was when the car was gray market imported.

So, in a nut shell, the speedo/odometer were original to the car, but the speedo face plate had been changed to reflect MPH.

That is interesting. Does this mean that your odometer is still rolling KM's while the speedometer is reading MPH? Was the mileage a factor when you purchased the car (i.e. did you think you were buying a car with 150k miles on it when in fact it was 150k kilometers so you actually got a car with 93k miles on it)?

[mldmotorwerks]

Originally Posted by COLB

Did MM do the original carb conversion and rebuild or did they "go through it" subsequently?

A motor less than 1000 miles out of rebuild should not be leaking oil at all -- unless it has sat for a long time, allowing weeping from valve cover gaskets or other perishable rubber.

I would downgrade my estimate to 14-15k given the dubious nature of the "rebuild" and the other cosmetic questions. MM doesn't make the car worthless, but definitely discounts the value adjustment for motor work.

After 25 years I didn't think the ROW/grey market issues mattered anymore -- unless the modifications were botched at the time. For ownership and registration purposes, does it matter whether a car built in 1983 was properly "federalized"? Like smog issues, maybe that varies by state?

By the way -- for the original poster -- if you are looking to set a value to resell this car (maybe taken as a trade in?) you should just be upfront about that. If you are looking at a flip, most people here understand that, provided you are honest about it, and are actually adding some value to the car -- rather than ripping off Uncle Joe's widow.

Spend the money to get a Porsche expert run a full up pre-purchase inspection. A compression & leakdown test, plus inspection of the headstuds should be part of that, and will tell you whether the car is viable.

If the engine is healthy, and you could get the car for $12,500-13,000, you could easily polish some money into it by putting on some 16" Fuchs wheels (maybe $750 + tires) and source & paint a standard rear deck (~$500) to replace the tail. Selling the two tails and the front spoiler would even defray your cost a fair bit.

Sort the wiring and the parts to make the heater work -- it is all doable for maybe $2000-2500.

Then you could price at $18,500, and sell at $17,000 and make a little money.

Or have a nice, attractive driver if that is really your intent.

But realize, this is almost certainly not a 911SC that is going to readily sell for over $20k.

I am honestly looking at it for myself. Does that mean it won't be for sale in the future, of course not. I think with some 16 inch repro fuchs and orig whale tail it would be an amazing car.

The motor is a gamble I guess... runs great though. Oil looks like its just seeping from oil pan and valve cover gaskets. Remember.... he has put less than 1k miles on the car in over 5 years since the rebuild.

Only thing I have no idea on is this heat... I would have to go back and see if it works or not, can you tell for sure from the pictures something is missing?

[sm70911]

I am honestly looking at it for myself. Does that mean it won't be for sale in the future, of course not. I think with some 16 inch repro fuchs and orig whale tail it would be an amazing car.
Only thing I have no idea on is this heat... I would have to go back and see if it works or not, can you tell for sure from the pictures something is missing?

If this is really a car you want for yourself and are interested in then you should also want to use the search function on the Tech section of this forum to find out about the SC heat system. (and discover a bit more about RoW cars)
Fake fuchs and a 'Whale tail', You can't even be bothered to look for the real thing on the classifieds. I'm sure you are going to turn this POS over as soon as the spring arrives to some ignorant punter and probably leave that unfortunate person to discover all about Motor shiester when the engine grenades, let alone discover the car sits on cheap / fake Chinese 'Fuchs'