What's a 1987 hot rod worth?

I'm considering buying a fairly highly modified 1987 coupe. The owner has put a lot of money into a clean original car, with a high-end build. The car has a built 3.4 with stand alone engine management, LSD/short-geared G50, lightweight seats, F&R fiberglass panels and decklid, Elephant suspension, BBS wheels, stainless heat exchangers and exhaust, half cage, etc.

Stock G50 cars have appreciated a ton, but modified cars are much harder to put a value upon. my view is that any deviation from stock, especially irreversible, as these re (he sold the stock parts) really devalues the car. that said the car is pretty much exactly what I want; I'll be selling my beautiful stock 1987 coupe if I decide to buy it.

The owner is asking $45K, which is way beyond what I think it's worth. Does anyone here have an opinion?

Thanks

Terry

[wayner]

My less than reliable opinion is that there has traditionally been three markets:

1) People looking for nice drivers (I'll leave rat cars off my list).
The driver car people look at well executed upgrades as a plus, but generally don't pay much of a premium. Traditionally the upgrades my just make the car easier to sell or worth a bit more compared to one that may need those stock parts replaced sometime soon.

2)People looking for race cars.
A car like you described is likely a $40-$70k car in the eyes of someone building a track car with all the goodies. That said, race car/track car buyers still look for deals versus the actual build cost. (I'm being optimistic that it is quite a ways down the hotrod road in this example, otherwise adjust the price downwards).

3)The person who wants an unmolested car. One person's treasure is this person's trash.
Now that our cars are going up in collectible value, this category of buyer is heating up, and they view modifications as devaluing.

[KTL]

That car you describe is certainly valuable to the right buyer (you) but not appealing to the masses. My '87 was similarly modified and when I decided to sell, I reversed everything to stock (I kept the parts..... ) to appeal to the widest market. Ironically, the guy who bought it plans to do everything I took off of the car.

I think the $45K price is a bit outrageous. You can get a lot more car for that kind of money. 964, 993, 996 modified or full-on race cars can be had for that kind of money and are much more formidable platforms to go fast in. As the newer cars continue to age, the older air-cooleds lose a lot of their value.

[Alan Lindquist]

Here's an uneducated opinion for you. But this is what makes sense to me.

Add whatever the value of an average condition model is, plus half of the cost of the upgrades (estimated). No extra value for any of his labor.

So lets say that the coupe was worth $24K and he invested $25K to modify it. $24 + $12.5 = $36.5K and the conversation starts from there.

If you're buying a modified car, you want a modified car. The builder of the car can't/shouldn't get full value for what we'll refer to as "upgrades." And you have to value everything done to it because that is what is being sold.

Otherwise you'll build it yourself the way you want it and he doesn't have a buyer. And you have $49K invested.

This assumes that the quality of the work performed meets your expectation.

[scarceller]

Keep in mind that major engine mods come with major tuning efforts, be certain it was properly tuned for all conditions like: cold start, changes in ambient temps, altitude corrections, list goes on. The danger with builds like this that use aftermarket EFI systems can be very difficult to get correct. If not correct the car can exhibit major drive-ability issues. Do your home work and hopefully it was well done.

[Josh D]

A rule of thumb that I typically go by is you get about a 50% return on desireable modifications. Example: If you add SSI HE and aftermarket muffler for $3k, it would be worth about $1500 on resale of the car.

[Matt Monson]

His price is a little high, but not out of the ballpark high. That assumes the 3.4 was built on the original case, and that the G50 is the same story. If so, he's really only $6-9K off market price, which is the negotiating room on a car like this.

All of the fiberglass stuff is reversible. Elephant bushings, etc are "upgraded" maintenance. So while the owner isn't smoking the good stuff high, I think that what he's offering will sell for only 15-20% less than his asking price. Maybe just not to you...

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I recently looked for 2 months to find a G50 coupe for a friend, first time Porsche owner. Nice drivers are all $28K. Excellent cars start at $34K. Car we bought was asking $32.5K, purchased for $29K, he couldn't be happier.

This car seems to be a purpose-built DE car. With the special exception of the engine, I consider many (not all) of the mods to negatively impact value if you will use it as a daily, though I'm sure a ton of money went into the car. Without seeing it/pics, it sounds more like a $35K car to me, and would only purchase it for DE duty. That cage is going to get annoying. I live pretty well with a fixed back bucket seat in my 84 but add a half cage (I'm assuming sloping door bars) and it would not be fun on a daily basis.

I'd keep your 87.

Excellent points all. Especially about the tuning the stand-alone system. The owner told me the car hates cold weather. The engine builder, to whom I spoke today, said he would recommend changing the throttle bodies to a more streetable setup--which he'd be willing to do for a cool $5K!

I like and respect the newer cars, but I LOVE the air cooled cars. I respect guys who can drive a non-computer assisted car way more than guys who blow by in the latest robo-cars. The former requires talent and guts. The latter requires cash.

Alan and Matt, your valuation comments are interesting. They yield a figure closer to what I think the car is worth.

Thanks guys!

Terry

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

I'd keep your 87.

I would too if I had the money to buy another track car.

Terry

[scarceller]

In my opinion any EFI to be used on the street really needs a very accurate way to meter air and the very best is a modern day MAF meter. MAP only setups are OK but leave holes in the tune for drive ability and TPS setups are even far worse. MAP with TPS is somewhat better but you just can't beat a MAF for perfect metering of fuel and air under all conditions. This is why just about every modern day engine uses MAF devices, they simply work!

So if you plan to drive this car primarily on the street you already have a clue from what you said: "Car hates the cold" this is very telling that the tune is wrong and not properly done and changing mechanical parts like the TB won't fix it!

If you want a street car that drives well and is reliable under all environmental conditions this may not be the car for you. At least as it's tuned now. And to fix a tune can cost $1000 in tuning time, paying the tuner and paying for proper dyno time.

[scarceller]

If this is a engine with a lot of money and mods in it you should ask if it was dynoed? What the torque and HP curve look like. I have a 3.2L with minor mods that cost $15K to build the motor then I spent 4 years tuning the motor and it puts out 230HP at the wheels now, not bad for a 3.2L. A 3.4L with that many mods should be above 240HP at the wheels and if not you can easily buy a better car for that money, like a 964.

The car allegedly dynoed at 300 hp at the crank, Sal. The sheets are with the guy who built the rest of the car, and he's not available til next week, so I'll get them then.

You're right--this may not be the car for me, certainly as it sits. I ran a heavily hot-rodded 944/968 on the track for 13 years, and by the end it would have been completely undriveable on the street, given its racing clutch and full cage, even if it had still had lights and such. So I have no illusions about the folly of trying to run race cars on the street. I'd still be tracking it, but a fire put an end to it.



The 911 appeals because so much non-engine work has been done--the suspension, lightweight parts, brakes, wheels etc., and because it is extremely clean. I might consider selling the race motor and replacing it with something milder, like a stock 3.6.

Terry

[KTL]

There's a lot of $ put into those modifications. A properly modified G50 fully freshened with a quality LSD is big money. Same goes for a well built 3.4. But as Sal said, for that money that 3.4 better be well tuned or else it doesn't amount to much of anything.

The proof in the pudding here is that there is a ceiling as to what a car is worth, obviously. In this case where we're talking about a car with a rather high base value. So it limits how much higher the car can go IMO. Just another example of how you have to reconcile whether you're willing to pay extra to take advantage of someone else's work or else do it yourself on another car that's not as nice of an example. Either way you're going to pay more because its what you aspire the car to be. You can't have it both ways. Either you're willing to pay up for the mods or you're not. Because you know somebody else will come along who is willing to pay for them..........

You also know from your experience that driving the older cars also requires humility. Because while it may take more talent to wrangle one of these somewhat evil-handling cars, it still doesn't change the fact that the guy in the newer car is faster. Nobody forced you to buy the older car and if that's your excuse for being slower, well, you're still slower. This is especially humbling when you're in an open class where you're governed by an open ruleset and weight : power ratio. Old vs. new with similar wt : pwr and equally talented drivers is usually going to be the newer guy coming out ahead. Translation = NASA GTS

[docpardue]

My buddy has a 87 that has he wants 100k for, but its a SC that drives a 997. Elephant everywhere, SSi's and brembo galore. Regardless a drive is worth what you are willing to pay. My 901 cost me 4k, and the next guy 30k within a year.

Originally Posted by KTL

You also know from your experience that driving the older cars also requires humility. Because while it may take more talent to wrangle one of these somewhat evil-handling cars, it still doesn't change the fact that the guy in the newer car is faster. Nobody forced you to buy the older car and if that's your excuse for being slower, well, you're still slower.

Humility, indeed. I don't race any more, but am very active as a DE driver instructor. So there are no class rules to fret about. While back east (D.C. Region), I ran my 944 in the top run group, and routinely got eaten up by all the Cup Cars and such. That said, I gained a bit of a rep for pedaling my humble 944 fairly decently. I have huge respect for guys who are quick in the older cars. Everybody knows who the really good--as opposed to just really rich--drivers are.

I don't need to be the fastest, which is good, because I can't afford it. I do need to have a car I really like.

Terry

[scarceller]

As several posts mentioned if your north of 35K with this car you can easily find a great 964 or 933 for that price and it will be all stock drive well on the street and be in the same 300HP at the crank range. The 964 and 933 also has better suspension system already as a stock setup.

Personally, I would not pay more than 30K for that car, not because it's not worth it but simply because I could buy a 964 or 993 for slightly more $$.

[Bill Douglas]

What would I know, but I'll say it anyway.

When a modified car breaks down it just about always is one of the modified bits that fail. Fine for the guy who built it, knowing every nut and bolt (and resistor), but a bugger to fix if you are not that guy.

[enzoducoing]

If you're considering selling your stock '87 to get this monster, it tells me you're into the driving experience more than just the pride of ownership and to me that says a lot about what you consider a priority. Sure an original car will only tend to rise in value, but bottom line is that if you like driving hard, once you use a modified, buffed-up well set up car, you'll find a stock car kind of boring. To me the only thing much more valuable than anything on any market is time. The time I have left in my life to enjoy and play and grin and smile. That's why I'd rather invest in other things like real state, and have only the cars I enjoy to drive hard. Such being the case if it were up to me, I would simply negotiate the price and get the hot rod I've always dreamed about. Besides, hot rods give you much more than just a greater driving experience, they give you freedom. Freedom to be creative, freedom to experiment, freedom to not care too much and just enjoy. Because they liberate you from the heavy burden of becoming just the temporary depositary of an stock-original, numbers-matching, value-appreciating, garage queen. With a stock car you serve the car, with a hot rod the car serves you.
Just my thoughts.
Cheers
MD

Originally Posted by enzoducoing

If you're considering selling your stock '87 to get this monster, it tells me you're into the driving experience more than just the pride of ownership and to me that says a lot about what you consider a priority. Sure an original car will only tend to rise in value, but bottom line is that if you like driving hard, once you use a modified, buffed-up well set up car, you'll find a stock car kind of boring. To me the only thing much more valuable than anything on any market is time. The time I have left in my life to enjoy and play and grin and smile. That's why I'd rather invest in other things like real state, and have only the cars I enjoy to drive hard. Such being the case if it were up to me, I would simply negotiate the price and get the hot rod I've always dreamed about. Besides, hot rods give you much more than just a greater driving experience, they give you freedom. Freedom to be creative, freedom to experiment, freedom to not care too much and just enjoy. Because they liberate you from the heavy burden of becoming just the temporary depositary of an stock-original, numbers-matching, value-appreciating, garage queen. With a stock car you serve the car, with a hot rod the car serves you.
Just my thoughts.
Cheers
MD

Well said, MD. You have me pegged--I'm much more a driver than a waxer. I was long ago into classic Corvettes, but lost interest because I couldn't use mine the way I wanted--it was too valuable. I have friends who don't understand driving an appreciating car regularly--"you need to keep the mileage down!" Baloney, I say. If I can't drive it, I don't want it. Personally, I'm sorry to see the prices of air cooled 911s going up so much. It means I'll be limited to one.

I spent the weekend getting my 911 all pretty and polished up to sell, and today didn't take it out because it was raining. Boo!

Terry