RUF CTR Conversion, Value discussion
 

Hello guys,

I recently announced my RUF CTR Conversion for sale here on Pelicanparts - and Ive had alot of offers both trade and sale - but they have been a bit below what I felt was fair value so - still not sold.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/924291-1988-ruf-ctr-mint-green-sale-trade.html

Now, according to RUF there were 29 orginal cars and 25 conversions , of those 29 the 15 first ones had a RUF VIN - The Ruf VIN models stopped being produced because Porsche ran out of new shells - other than that there are no differences between the conversions and factory cars - this has been confirmed by RUF - they were all torn down to atoms before being re-built ground up as CTRs a la carte.

This is one of the 25 conversions and confirmed as such by RUF in writing. They know the car well.


Like I wrote in the other thread, considering the milage - my price feels fair.

What are Pelicaners view, Im always interested in input, however contrary.

Best,
Axel - Norway.

Axel I absolutely love your car. In terms of value wasn't the CTR that was for sale in Florida a couple years ago asking around 175k? And from what I recall it sat for a good 1.5-2 years before it moved.

A couple of years ago, 930s were 40 grand also! and 3.2s were 10 grand!

3 years ago you could buy a nice Carrera 3.0 for 15-20 grand all day long!

or a 911E for 20 grand ;)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/688735-sale-1969-coupe-911e-88k-orig-miles.html

Well, that car is an aweful example as it was a rat and couldn't move at hardly any price.

Somewhat I know what you mean. But folks seem to think prices have just recently risen when really they have been rising since at least 2012, so it's approaching 4-5 years ago when you could get really good cars for lower prices.

Regardless, I love your car...

Axel:

1) By the photos it doesn't look Mint Green but sort of a Turquoise.
2) If it were Yellow and you could call it a YellowBird it would be worth more - common sense.
3) It's a conversion. Since it's a conversion, can't you still get a conversion done by RUF? I know he would do it because he even restores cars to stock and will do anything if you send him the dough. So certainly he could work up a car to be like yours.
4) At the end of the day, a conversion will always be a conversion no matter what you call it. It's not a blank-slate, body-in-white canvas that the other ones were built to at RUFs discretion. Those cars were built from a tub to a complete car. Yours was a regular 911 and then modified.
5) What's a market on a real YellowBird?
6) If you think you can build in value now by asking $300K, thinking what it will be worth in the far future, it's like trying to assume how much gold is in your mine and spending it before you begin mining it.
7) Although the car is awesome, it's nowhere worth $300K. It's probably worth $140K. That's my opinion.

And you saying that a couple years ago that 3.2s were $10K - Yeah no.

1, The color is an official RUF color , it is what it is.

2, If you read up on the history of the car you will know that the nickname is from an early US test. RUF CTRs came in all kinds of colors.

3, with an open cheque book, maybe. anything is possible. it still wont be one of the original 50-odd cars.

4, Wrong, they were all completely stripped down to atoms and built from the ground up. Read up on what RUF CTRs really are. There are no differences between the 15 RUF VIN`ed cars and the 35 other cars. I agree that RUF VIN cars are worth more for the VIN number alone. There is only 1 other CTR for sale, with a RUF vin. he is asking 1 million dollars ( 890.000 euros)

5, how can you know, they arent for sale anywhere. The owners of theirs in europe arent letting theirs go.

6 and 7 - thank you for your opinion. Like I said, all opinions are welcome , but your facts are a bit off :) In your opinion, value is on par with a clean 930. I strongly disagree, but thats my perogative (and yours)

Ummmm, yeah no. As for the history of the car vs. the conversion:

A real RUF CTR was made from scratch from RUF ordering bare chassis - 'body-in-white' tubs from Porsche - and conversions like yours were done to existing 3.2 Carreras that customers already owned and brought to RUF. If you don't know this basic fact there seems to be a serious disconnect in the marketing of your car.

So saying yours (a conversion) vs. a real RUF VIN that somehow they are closely related unfortunately the market will never, ever see it like you envision it in your head. You have a Porsche, not a RUF.

The real story is that a dude at Porsche initially built yours and RUF put some stuff on it, vs RUF building the entire thing - to me there is really no comparison.

Yours is a Porsche with RUF parts on it. It's not a RUF. It's a conversion, unless there is something in your head that translates conversion differently then mine does.


Best of luck at $300K, and if you can point me to some archived threads on 3.2s going for $10K a couple years ago that'd be great.

Hehe, RUF seem to disagree about it not being a CTR- and I personally know the owner of one of the original 29 cars - and that one has a Porsche VIN too.

The CTR was based on the Carrera 3.2 shell, and so was the engine - all done for lightweight and low drag. When RUF couldnt get blank shells, they started using existing Porsche shells. This is non-disputable fact.

In your opinion its not a real Ruf. Thats fine. For some people only a RUF Vin will do.

Thanks for your input.

I'm surprised that the listing hasn't been deleted since "asking mid 300s" isn't stating a price.

I think the conversion cars are done the same as the factory cars in terms of process though? Stripped to bare shell and then built up again. Although would rather this car had a 5 speed like the yellow bird

But like you said, still a Porsche vin and still could be done today.

Fwiw I don't see the difference Btwn this car and one built today. What makes it one of the 'original' CTRs?

And don't worry yes I still love it.

There was a Ruf developed six speed gearbox fitted too the CTR ,BTR, BTRIII from 1989. The R50.50

Transmission ratios
1st-3.500
2nd-2.059
3rd-1.409
4th-1.074
5th-0.861
6th-0.718
Reverse-2.857
Drive ratio-3.444

Same shell stripped and built up again, there is 0 difference between factory cars and conversions. RUF CTR is a ground up nut and bolt model.

Because there were about 55 original CTRs built, its history - 29 factory cars and 25 conversions, all using Carrera 3.2s as a base. No technical differences between the 15 cars with a RUF VIN and the 40 cars with a Porsche VIN. Half of the original CTRs had Porsche VINs, they ran out of blank shells!

Do you understand what a RUF CTR is? Again, the procedure to build a CTR is the same if its a conversion or a ruf-supplied shell.

RUF built the entire thing, they chop up a Carrera 3.2 to make it. There is no "putting on stuff" . Its completely bespoke.

RUF CTR is a complete car with its own specs. IM sure you could just get the engine if you asked for that, but it wouldnt be a RUF CTR.

Axel84. You asked this forum what they think your car is worth and some people have given you their feedback, over and over you argue with everyone. So at this point it seems if someone doesn't value your car at the price you set you dismiss them.
You have become an ask hole.


Your car is not worth a mid $300k price, if it was someone would have paid that. It is not an original vin CTR. It is a very cool car, I would love to own it. To reach your asking it would need to be yellow (yes they came in all different colors, but yellow bird came in one color) it would need to be lower mileage and an orginal vin car.
My guess is $155k-$195k at the high end.
Fantastic car! Thank you for posting it here.



As far as the comment about 3.2 Carreras in the $10k range, you are correct. If you have been watching Porsches for years and years they do come up from time to time

Im arguing with 1 person over facts, not price. Disagreements on price , Thats fine.
Factual errors , I correct. A Porsche with some ruf stuff on it, it is not.

Yellowbird is not the model name of the car. its a RUF CTR.
The car received its nickname, "Yellowbird", during testing by Road & Track magazine, whose staffers noted the contrast created by its yellow paintwork against the overcast skies on the day of their photo shoot.

Thanks for the feedback. Askhole hehe, perhaps I am ;)

Agree with this.

I think your ask is fine. You just need to fix the obvious flaws, market it better and wait for the right buyer.

When people are asking $150K for run of the mill turbo Carreras, your CTR is surely not worth only $150K. It's an awesome car but I do agree with those who say you shouldn't call it Yellowbird.

I'll take it at $180K.

Thanks for the feedback pmax. If people gets hung up at the yellowbird nickname, then perhaps it confuses buyers, you may be right. Personally I dont see the color being a big value fluctuator one way or another, but I can understand why people would want it to be yellow.

There were 2 CTRs at RUF for restoration this year, one is having a color change from Red to black according to Marcel RUF.

I also cant help but draw paralells to the Turbo Carrera / 930 market. I love 930s and I own an 82 myself, but the CTR is just something completely different. Its hard not to compare them - also valuewise.

Obviously - you need to understand and Love what makes the CTR so special to pay a top price for them. I wish I could keep mine, but other ventures makes me consider selling it if the price is right.

There seems to be a huge disconnect in the depths of your ignorance.

A RUF CTR is exactly what it is : A RUF CTR. A RUF CTR does not have a 'RUF VIN' as you say it does because it is a RUF. It's considered a RUF because it's a RUF. Plain and simple. It's not a Porsche, never was a Porsche, and was never made to be a Porsche.

Your conversion was a Porsche. It's not a RUF. It will always be a Porsche that's made into a RUF. RUF never 'made' it. That's the reason why you are not getting any offers, interest, and otherwise any special treatment because it's a conversion at the mind-blowing price of $300K (or around this, though an exact number has yet to be named).

Problem is in this market, people and dealers like you see gold when in fact your car is made from pyrite. I really do wish you the best but you don't seem to get it. You have a Porsche made into a RUF CTR. Not a real RUF CTR.

No worries CountD, you have own your opinion on the matter. Let me know if you find any 150 grand CTR Conversions, Ill have 2!

I'm quite ignorant on the specifications of this versus that. I will say that if you need to prove your point by quoting 'facts' over and over to educate people, to justify a $300k plus price tag, you've got a problem on your hands.

GLWS.

You are probably right, debating facts over and over is silly. Those in the know, will know. others will just see an overpriced porsche with ruf bits on it. Thanks for your input Nick.

I know a great painter.....

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

Axel,

Please excuse me as I did not mean to bag on your car. There is nothing worse than coming to a forum with a question and have some guy bag on your car. I have my reasons as stated. This is a great forum with great people and it's one of the rare places on the internet that many people know what they are talking about and take the time to talk about it.

All I was saying is:

A RUF CTR = A RUF CTR
A Porsche converted into a RUF CTR = A Porsche converted into a RUF CTR

That's it. I don't know if anyone really cares as at the end of the day, as it's essentially the same as a CTR. But I guess a Mustang Fastback with Shelby mods is essentially a Shelby GT350. But a Shelby GT350 is worth a heck of a lot more than a Mustang with all the correct Shelby mods. And one of those new Shebly Cobras built by Shelby with old VINS are essentially a Cobra, but the market sees it quite differently.

I suspect all the money would go to a RUF CTR. But with so few made, and so few conversions ever done (because they were so over-the-top expensive) the market is very small, and someone wanting a CTR without all the provenance and hub-bub it would not matter which it was. If a real CTR (what's real) is worth $800K (I have no idea), is a CTR conversion worth $300K? Who knows. I don't. Either way, both cars are special and if you wait long enough you'll get a buyer. But in this time of woe and want in all things 911 things get very exciting and very clouded at once.

^^^Can we settle this once and for all ?


Does Alois call this a RUF CTR ? If he does, his word should be good enough.

Can you still take at 3.2 to RUF for the ctr conversion? If so what's that cost? If not does RUF provide a certificate of authentication for this conversion?

As for price.. why not stick it on ebay with a high reserve and buy it now and see what it bids to? Probably your best bet on establishing a realistic value on the car. Who knows maybe you'll be able to strike a deal with a serious bidder even if it doesn't hit the reserve.

It's a beautiful car that's for sure and I dig the color. GLWS!

No worries guys, like I said when i started the thread - I appreciate you pelicaners view, even if they are contrary to mine.

Arguing back and forth whether its a real CTR - well - its one of the official 25 conversions confirmed by RUF, who also sent me the conversion papers for the car back in 1991. If thats not real enough for some, then I suspect only a RUF VIN`ed CTR will do. And thats fine, I suspect some collectors do think that!

As for having a new one built today - They could probably do it, the price of the conversion would likely be similar to a brand new Singer - and it still wouldnt be one of the 50 odd original cars - but i bet it would drive like one!

It wont go on Ebay, partly because I dont have to sell it, but rather because I would like it to find a nice enthusiastic buyer in private. I`d be open to a reasonable offer.

No worries CountD, No offense taken :) Appreciate your input!

1988 Porsche 911 Turbo 'Ruf CTR' | Monaco 2016 | RM Sotheby's

This one went up on auction earlier this year. Lovely car, but its a 930 turbo converted to a BTR then given CTR running gear, not a 3.2 based CTR with a 3.2 based engine as per original. I think advertising it as a CTR with alot of CTR history is a bit disingenious as this car is probably a good 700 pounds heavier than the proper CTRs.

Lovely car and I`d love to own it, but it isnt a proper CTR!

Someone will pay full price soon, I wouldn't budge a cent, would triple price so to make sure no one would buy it.

This Canadian CTR was avail in 2014 for $260 CAD which is around $190k USD

Canadian Redbird: 1989 Ruf CTR #12 | Bring a Trailer

Seems like a similar car, but half the miles of yours. I hear mileage really hurts the value on these. Mileage, not Yellowbird yellow, super far away from The US, just killin the value. Or maybe I'm using as a negotiating tactic.... :)

:D:D

You are taking me to the cleaners Ryan!

"Does Alois call this a RUF CTR ? If he does, his word should be good enough."

Well put.
I think some may not clearly understand the way Alois was dealing w/ the factory and the happy surprise of facing greater demand than he'd forecast when he placed his order w/ the factory. He ordered a bunch of bodies-in-white, and when the market exhausted his supply (recall that the factory was on kinda thin $$$ ice at the time, & getting ready to change the chassis & production process too) he did the next best thing possible... got new 911s, took them down to "body-in-white" status, then built them up again - like he did with the factory-batch cars, with the extra step of stripping them down. If Axel's car is one of these, done by Ruf back in the day, and it is so recognized by Ruf, has contemporaneous docs, chain-of-ownership records... all the provenance one could ask for... then, the only differential would be that the market (a pretty thin one at that) might prefer the sequence built from the BIW chassis Ruf ordered from Porsche vs ones he sourced subsequently.

If I were you Alex, and could be patient, I would price it where I'd like to sell it and just wait till an actual buyer showed up who wanted one so badly that he wasn't bothered by the slight distinction among the early run of CTRs. And if you indeed have Alois backing (both historical records and a current validation of your specific car as one of his "taking down to BIW & build as CTR"), then you are on pretty solid ground. All you need is the support of Ruf and the right prospect. or two.

Thanks for great thought out reply Drauz - Yes of cource I have a RUF supplied document outlining and confirming the entire conversion. RUF are confirming its one of the original CTR conversions, around 25 were done in addition to the 29 original.

A friend of mine told me yesterday he contacted RUF in 2007 to have one built.


"tried to have one made in 2007 but they said they didnt have the parts anymore."

That is a sweet car....GLWS.

MattR

IMO Value should be based upon actual RUF build documentation.... this and only this should determine if it is a RUF CTR.

Price...... no idea market is up and down seemingly dependent upon the specific car.

http://i64.tinypic.com/2chxb0w.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/nl969v.png

http://i63.tinypic.com/sbox6q.png

Hopefully that illuminates the authenticity of the car!

Best,
axel

RUF Conversions done by RUF are still RUF cars and considered as such by the factory. That said, the RUF Vin cars will always be most desirable with conversions done at Pfaffenhausen coming in second place.

Absolutely, and I fully agree Niche.

I think your asking price is fair but this car really needs to be marketed and placed at the right auction to get all the money. RM is probably the place.