Why are mid 90's 993 and 996's going for more than a 1999 Carrera?

[blau911]

What am I missing? I can buy a 1999 Carrera coupe with less than 45k miles for under $30k, which is 3-5k cheaper than a 5 year older model 993. Why such a low resale on the 1999- 2001 Carrera models?

[the]

Because the 993 is a better car that is more desirable to most people.

The market speaks.

[blau911]

But why is it better? The 99 models have more hp and newer technology - and 5 years less depreciation? I appreciate your comment, but I am looking for specifics.
Anyone else qualified to chime in?

[Type911]

As stated it is the market. 1998 model year for 911 was the last of the air-cooled engines. End of an era. Many enthusiasts feel the 911 lost its soul when Porsche went to water cooled engines.

Is the 98 actually a better car than a 996, technology wise?
Probably not...but many feel the 993 is a better looking car than
the 996, just as many feel the 89 & earlier 911 is better looking
than a 964. The 996 is the new 964. That said the 964 is a really great car w/ many of the mechanical issues ( cyl head oil leaks etc.) blown out of proportion by the internet. I think the same stigma of negative perception has affected the 996.
Combine all this w/ the new 997 model , which imho is a much better car, looks & technology...and you have the market forces at work.

Although the 996 model is my least favorite, I think there are some great bargains to be had on these cars right now.

[blau911]

Thanks Type. This business about the 911 losing its soul is a laugh. I am an early 911 guy, and we say that about ALL 911's built after 1973.
I have lkooked at the 993's and I used to think that was the car to get. But after thinking it over the past few years, the interior already looks dated and late 80's-ish. There is however a 993 fly yellow C4 that I would like to have. But with more depreciation ready to hit the 993's, I would just assume buy a 996 for under $30k that's only 6 years old and take my chances with that instead. With 996 prices at $30k, how much downside risk can there be...
Well, I am very close to pulling trigger on a 1999 996. With two small children I will be able to get away with using it as a family car until the first child becomes larger than a leprauchan.

[kilodawg]

blau,

I find your post somewhat interesting coming from an early 911 guy. An early 911 guy should see the 993 as the ultimate evolution of the early car. Now I have often heard comments like it's too heavy, too refined, not as raw as earlier models (even though it's quicker and more powerful). In affect too far from the early car.

I've never heard an early car guy say that the interior looked late 80's-ish. In fact older than it actually was. If anything, the familiarity and refinement of the layout are the final step in the evolution of the early 911 interior.

The break between the 993 and the 996 was major. Water-cooled engines and a total departure from the original interior layout are just the obvious ones that come to mind.

Also, the engines on 996's were far less expensive to manufacture than the 993 I'm told. In fact I've seen them referred to as "disposable" depending on the problem. Porsche would just as soon replace the entire motor than fix the specific problem. Also, no more dry sump (with the exception of the turbo's and GT-3's).

In fact history has shown that Porsche strayed a bit too far from the path with the 996 in it's styling and design. They have about admitted as much with the 997 and it's return to standard oval headlights and a shape more reminiscent and evolutionarily linked to the 993.

So the 996 stands out between these two superior bookends of 911 design which is IMHO a large part why you are beginning to see the early 996's drop in price relative to the 993's. In a few years I firmly believe most any 97 or 98 993 should be worth more than a 99-01 996 in equal condition and will forever remain that way.

I also don't get your comment about the 996 as a family car for small kids compared to a 993 I assume?

Personally, I would always prefer a 993 over a 996 precisely because I'm an early car guy.

Now don't get me wrong I would always rather have a Porsche than another car but for an early car guy to view it from your perspective I find a bit strange..

[blau911]

KDog,
The 993 being the ultimate evolution of the early 911? Let's see: Power windows, power assisted streering, air conditioning, climate control, ABS, power seats, etc... isn't this about as far removed from the early 911's as you can get? This junk was weight and totally anethema to what the early 911 design was about (light weight, low displacement, high reving motors) - not the sport sedans they have become.
While I am no expert with the newer modes, from what I can see, the main difference between the 996 and 993 models is the radiator on the 996 and a few cosmetic changes. I don't see there being a clear cut line between old school 911 and new school 911 between the 993 and 996 cars which you suggest. That sounds like something Porsche's Marktg dept would have issue back in 1999.
Porsche decided long ago to loadp on the creature comforts and try to compensate for all of this weight increase by increasing motor displacement and enhancements in suspension and braking. To me the real break took place when the factory decided to get out of racing.
As far as disposablilty of the 996 motor, I don't know if that's true. But my goal is to buy a car with low enough miles that I don't have to replace the motor while I own the car, and not to own the car more than a few years. If I find that I really like it, I may keep it longer. That is why I am looking to buy a 6 year old car with low miles rather than a 10 year car with more miles - and more money...
I am still a early 911 guy. I am just looking for a daily driver for the wife and kids that I can still enjoy driving. Something that has more creature comforts, something that is more reliable and safer. This car would be a compromise for the family.
If you are an early 911 enthisiast, I think we can both agree that no 993,996,911SC or Carrera can ever come close to the fun and go-kart rush of a pre-74 911. The newer cars are just a compromise for the family.

[kilodawg]

Blau,

A few cosmetic changes....

Best of luck to you but if you don't see the diff between the 993 and 996 as a major jump I can't do any more. You originally asked the question about why the low resale value? We tried to explain it from an enthusiaasts perspective and it seems you just want to negate the fact that it exists.

I own a 73 and a 993. All I can tell you from my perspective is that those two cars are "linked" more noticeably to me than my 993 is to my buddy's 996.

If that's not your opinion fine, but your not changing mine nor a lot of the others who will keep 993 resale values up.

And I'm not a Porsche marketing guy either, by the way.

[blau911]

Not trying to change anyone's mind. I was asking for opinions and you gave me yours. Thanks.

[Type911]

Originally posted by blau911

If you are an early 911 enthisiast, I think we can both agree that no 993,996,911SC or Carrera can ever come close to the fun and go-kart rush of a pre-74 911.

Amen brother !

[crosby50]

Blau,

As an everyday car, of course the 996/997 will be a better choice. I just drove a brand new 997 (less than 1000 miles) and, although a great ride, it didn't do it for me. It felt like any number of luxo-sedans out there. That being said, my everyday car is a luxo sedan, but when I want the raw experience of a sports car I drove my Carrera.

I think if you buy a 996 you should buy it because you like it (ie., driving feel, styling, practicality), not because it is a Porsche. As an early Porsche guy you know better than most that a 996 may as well be made another manufacturer. They have no common thread.

[racer]

1) Scarcity - 993's and 964's were made in much smaller numbers than the 996

2) "Air cooled". These words define the 911 perhaps more than any other element. Many feel that once the 911 was no longer aircooled, it was no longer a "911" in the true sense

3) Reliability. There were some reliability issues with the early 996's. It wasn't until CEL and Valvue guide problems for the 993's reared their head that they were "more reliable"

I too love the early cars vs the later cars. People complain about the increased weight of the newer cars (hmm, while quick to point out the A/C, pwer seats etc, they almost NEVER complain about the increased weight of the 3.6 liter 280hp motor, or the big heavy exhaust, or the large 18" wheels that make it handle well, but I digress )

To me, the 996 is the new "middle year" car. Much maligned like the 1974-77 cars. BUT. A 996 is faster than a 993. Should be enough to compel anyone to get one, especially if they are "cheaper".

Believe it or not, there are some Porsche fans who think the 911 was a sell out compared to their 4-cyl 356.. Others hate the 924/44/68 series cars, other the 928. Every time Porsche builds "a better Porsche" people rise up as though Porsche has insulted them by improoving the breed

[Rockafella]

The basics of price are supply and demand. 993s have high demand, low-ish supply. 996s have low-ish demand, high supply. Why, because to most, it's just a used car. 996s are not nearly as hard hit as Boxsters, which are extreme examples of this.

The watercooleds are phenominal cars. But, to many enthusiasts, they are not great 911s. It's the enthusiasts that keep 993 prices high. Everyone says to get one, but this is a bit of herd mentality. It's aircooled, it's the last one, it's a Ferrari build before Enzo died, blah, blah......can we all agree that this is academic/trivial vs. DRIVING?

Having said that, I voted 996 with my dollars. Why, because it looks modern, drives modern, etc. Why would I go buying a new Porsche that drives old if I already have (and am keeping) one that is old? Oh, the most important factor: the wife likes and drives it.

There will always be haters of change. Seriously, would people buy a 1973 911S today if it were available off the showroom? Maybe, but then 911 sales would rival the Lotus Elise.

996s are easy to drive fast and hard, more so than any 911 before it. This and unfamiliarity makes most people dislike them.

Funny how the same applies to the 997, but people like the round headlights. C'mon, are we now at the level of the Jeep guys who refer to the TJ as the "yuppie Jeep" because of platform improvements and more important, headlight shape. Is the 997 better, I don't think so. More desireable, yes. Why, 100s of different reasons but maybe because of the round headlights most of all......

You can keep pace with the world or be the old guy driving the old car with the tweed jacket and funny hat. The great thing is that we have choices.

disclaimer: I was 8 years old when my SC was built, so I have no real sentimental attachment to what era the cars are from.

[kilodawg]

Funny, for a second there I almost thought I heard you say that the 996 was a better car than the 997?

Shouldn't your head have exploded when you said that?

[Type911]

[i] Is the 997 better, I don't think so. More desireable, yes. Why, 100s of different reasons but maybe because of the round headlights most of all......

[/B]

Orange & Viper Green plus the round headlights are a couple of my reasons why I like the 997 more than the 996

[kilodawg]

Type 911,

Yep I'm an early car guy and I love the 997 especially so the new GT-3 version. Yet to quote Borat, not so much the 996. So it's not that I'm a change hater. It's just that not all change is by definition good.

[aigel]

Back to the value. It is supply and demand. There is a ton of 996 cars out there and nobody wants them right now. If you think they are as good or better than the 993, you should go for it.

My prediction for the future value of 993s is that they will be holding their dollar value (possibly not making up for inflation) and that 996s will eventually be found in the 928 price range, the basement. They will be worse than the 964.

One big killer for the 996 which we have not mentioned here is the fact that it looks like a Boxster from the front. It especially takes a second look if you have a cabriolet. Nobody wants to buy the "supercar" to be potentially mistaken for it's cheap mini me.

And yes, a lot of this is about emotions, down to the shape of headlights. Nobody buys a certain 911 because they need it or not even for the differences in performance.

There are some opinions in this thread that are outside of the mainstream of 911 enthusiasts. That's respectable. But in the end this is a value discussion. And the direction the herd is going (993) is the direction the money is going as well. For everyone else, I suggest you buy two 996s, while they are cheap.

George

[Rockafella]

I agree, this discussion is about value and the very emotional topic of money. I think the value/price/desireability debate is due to the fact that we all do not want to watch our hard earned dollars vaporize in the cars. If I buy a car and enjoy it, what can I theoretically sell it for now and in the future?

I think the longhood frenzy and it's accompanying escalation in prices stripped a lot of joy (and hence value as measured by "utils") from 911s. These are used cars, all of them. Some go up, some go down, some stay level, but all are enjoyable or we wouldn't even consider owning them.

Blau911 should buy what floats his boat regardless of what anyone here (including me) thinks. The guys who like 993s should keep demanding those, convice your buddies to buy them or whatever. I bought a 996 because I liked it more. I expect to get almost nothing for it if/when I sell it. Same holds true for my SC and everything else I own.

While I watch 911 values and want to get fair market for when I sell something, I do not obsess over it. I have seen the formerly infallible SCs and G50 Carreras fall as attention shifted around them.

My point is that you can never tell market trends with any real degree of certainty. If you think you can, you should get a job with the Fed right now!

Funny how a 993 is coveted in this community, but if you drive one down the street in some neighborhoods, they just think you are too poor to buy a new one.

Hold your flames at the door, I am just making a point:

You can't make everyone happy, so do what YOU want.

George, 996 = 928? Nah, they are all still 911s...even the lepers we call mid-year owners (again, just making a point)!

[kilodawg]

Rockafella,

I agree with all in your post. However, on more than one ocassion I have had people ask me if both my Carerra and 993 were "new".

I would hope that most of don't own these cars for status or care what people in "some neighborhoods" think.

I own mine for the concept, the history, the lineage and the way they make me feel behind the wheel.

Blau should get what he wants and be happy. You are correct.

[Rockafella]

Ah, we finally agree . Actually, as I own Porsches, I typically end up liking them all for different reasons. I try hard not to be biased and I think that shows in my diverse ownership history. I will take one of each if I could.

Someone needed to have an opposite view of "conventional wisdom" even if just for debate purposes. Blau asked the question and it is easy to just say "buy a 993" without supporting such a statement.

I feel like such a civil rights lawyer. I took the unpopular stand but wanted to provide information or a perspective never generally considered. I probably did not persuade or dissuade anyone. But I hope that whatever your view, it was considered against the opposite.

Healthy debate is what makes the Marketplace Forum one of my favorites!