Innovate air fuel meter on CIS 81SC???

[aigel]

Last month's Car Craft introduced Innovate Motorsport's air fuel meter and they spoke very highly of it. I'd like to get it for my older (carbureted) american heaps and for the 911 of course!

I am running with the O2 sensor undone and can only guess that the ratio is good, because it sure runs a heck better than with the O2 plugged in, but I really need to dial the CO2 / air fuel ratio to make sure I am in the right band!

So, my question is, is the Innovate air fuel meter the right tool? Does it have the correct thread to plug into the stock O2 sensor location or the inspection port (that I believe I am seeing in the exhaust?). Of course, a trip to the muffler shop, and you'd have a nice bung in there that shouldn't hurt.

Please anyone with CIS and this a/f meter respond!!!

Cheers, George

PS: Where do I buy this thing???

[kstylianos]

George,

I'm thinking of the same for my 82 SC. The best bang for the $$ IMHO......has and RPM pickup (extra) and can monitor up to 4 other voltage inputs. Its not just an O2 meter, it's a data logger....think of the possibilities

Main LM1 page:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/lm1.php

And yes, they have a forum also:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/index.php

[ttweed]

Yes, I have an LM-1 and it comes with a bung for your exhaust to be welded in if you don't have one, but the Bosch O2 sensor will work perfectly in any existing stock port.

It has worked perfectly for me so far and the software performs as advertised to view data you have recorded. I think RPM with the A/F ratio would be very helpful, so I am going to add the aux. input cable and inductive clamp.

I have only had it hooked it up to my 2.0 EFI Honda motor in the Ultralite yet to tune the SDS system, but it has been a huge help to see what the mixture is doing while driving along under varying loads and RPM. I have probably saved the cost of the unit in avoidance of dyno time, although some will still be necessary to tune for peak power.

I plan on hooking it up to the 3.4 with PMOs in the 911 next, but it is not so easy to adjust as the EFI.

TT

[Lukesportsman]

Like Tom, I purchased an LM-1 to help tune my SDS system also. Since the SDS lacks Laptop feeds and is interfacing only with numerical displays, I hope this results in a valuable tuning aid. Much the same, your CIS isn't giving any feedback or logging of its own that the LM-1 could give you.

Not as friendly to read on the road as some of the UEGO's out there, but then again nothing to mount and less initial costs. And, if like me, you have more than one car to use it on the cost drops quickly.

Luke

[89turbocabmike]

I have an Innovate also and love it. I'm really waiting for their new accessory box that will allow me to datalog boost/rpm among other parameters. If your familiar with Pat Williams Racing(they do Porsche race motors) they are using the Innovate Wide Band to aid their on-road tuning of the new EFI conversion developed for 930's.

[aigel]

One more stupid question. The CIS, when adjusting the idle mixture, all manuals say that you need to hook the exhaust up to a CO2 meter, not an a/f ratio meter. Will the innovative meter do the job if I set things to an acceptable a/f ratio???

As far as I understand, if the O2 sensor is disconnected, the brain let's the engine go at the manually set mixture. The bentley only calls this a 'default' value. I'd like to get some numbers rather than rely on a simple idle adjustment.

And last question. How long do these things take to ship out? I'd like to get it in in a couple of days.

Cheers, George

[Noel]

George, let us know how it works out for you with the SC. I too am interested in this product.

Noel

[ttweed]

Originally posted by aigel
One more stupid question. The CIS, when adjusting the idle mixture, all manuals say that you need to hook the exhaust up to a CO2 meter, not an a/f ratio meter. Will the innovative meter do the job if I set things to an acceptable a/f ratio???

Yes, a lambda sensor will tell you the same thing as a gas tester (namely, what your mixture is doing), just using a different data source with a different target value. The advantage of the LM-1 is that you can drive around and see what it's doing under varying loads, which you can't do with a sniffer up it's butt except on a dyno.

And last question. How long do these things take to ship out? I'd like to get it in in a couple of days.

I would call them about that. You are in the SF Bay area? Shipping from their LA location should be quick if it's in stock (which it should be) and you might be able to pay a little extra for second day delivery or something.

TT

[89turbocabmike]

George, the LM-1 can also output a narrow-band signal so you could have it hooked to your stock O2 bung, monitor wide-band and also provide your FI with a proper signal so that it does not go into default mode. I have found the limitations of this unit are my own unfamiliarity with programing(I'm learning slowly). Check out Innovate's support forum(off their website) where you can get some great info from guys that are really working these things hard!

[aigel]

I just got off the phone with a very friendly lady at innovate. Will ship today and I should have it in two days.

I need to learn more about the CIS. I read on this board, that unplugging the 02 sensor on the late CIS is a performance mod. The 'default' setting of the brain is actually what you want to shoot for, because it will be the richer setting that you can manipulate by hand. As soon as you plug the 02 sensor back in, it will always set you back into the (leaner and less performing) a/f ration that minimizes emissions. Now, that's just what I read. I also ordered the FI book by charles probst, that should help me shed some light on the operation of the CIS.

Now I only need to know what a good A/F ratio to shoot for is. Or at least what a 'dangerous' one is, that I need to avoid. For the upcoming weekend I want to just make sure I am never running lean. We'll take it from there. The car runs very well (gets compliments at any autocross from instructors / passengers that know their P cars), so I hope there won't be much to adjust.

Cheers, George

[kstylianos]

George.

Steve Weiner mentioned that our 911 engines make max power at ~13.2:1 AFR. Try to shoot for a WOT AFR between 12.8:1 and 13.9:1.

Setting the idle CO% between 2.5%-3.5% (13.56:1-13.2:1 AFR) is a good starting point to enrich the AFR through out the RPM range and will also provide a little more low end power. Set this with the O2 sensor unplugged.

Here is a map of my AFR from a recent dyno session. Idle CO% set at 2.5. Notice how the CIS fluctuates....function of the sensor plate funnel. BTW: Mine is running a tad bit rich in the high RPM's. May require a little tweaking of the system/control pressures. Not too worried right now as summer is coming and will be tracking it quite a bit.

[William Miller]

Charlie, keep me posted if you get this.
Is there still a group buy option?

[89turbocabmike]

George, I think that with the LM1 you can manipulate the narrowband output such that it would give you a richer mixture but not go full default which might be too rich. Check the Innovate support forums on this.

[aigel]

I got the toy in time today and already had some serious fun. This gizmo really rocks. Installation (not fixed, just for testing) was a breeze. The sensor fits the stock 02 threads, no problem, as you had told me. Software is real easy to use (for the basics that I have done so far).

Here a section of a WOT run.



Looks like I am definitely in the safe area. Not too lean and not too rich either. There is a lean blimp when you stomp it. Where is the acceleration pump when you need it. This is all I will need for the weekend's high speed driving event.

Seems that it enrichens nicely, especially at high RPM wot, where I read about 12.6 while driving. I saved the data to excel format and come up with 13.5 +/- 1.0 for the A/F in the warmed up 'racing' mode taking the car on my private backroad track. I think this is definitely not too lean, right? I would think that WOT at high rpm is the worst case for a lean condition.

I will add RPM and temp sensing and will have to learn a lot more about the innovate meter and CIS. If it is true that I can manipulate the output narrow band simulation signal of the innovate box to the CIS brain (offsetting the signal to the lean side, to make it run richer overall) then this box is worth its $ in gold!

Can you tell I am excited? I pitty the ones that spent the eve watching TV, even if it was $350 cheaper for them.

Cheers, George

[aigel]

Charlie:

My hot idle 950rpm A/F is 13.3. No need to do anything about that for now.

George

[Wayne 962]

We're selling them now - they should be in the catalog today. It has already earned a spot in Wayne's toolbox as one of the most valuable tools...

-Wayne

[Lorenfb]

It's usually better to initially setup the fuel mixture using the CO measurement
as it's a more integrative number (averages). The AFR number tends to vary
a lot (as can be seen by the posted graph) which makes it difficult to adjust
the mixture based on it. The AFR is good for monitoring the final setting.
Therefore, one should use both.

Check out this web site (www.systemsc.com) on the Graphs page and the
Problems page (Emissions) for some additional info.

[aigel]

Loren:

Once the car is hot and idling, you can let it run for 5 minutes and then average the data. There is hardly any variation in A/F at hot idle. I can send a graph and calculate the average +/- stdev. to show you that it is marginal. I really don't think you'd still need a CO2 measurement capabiliy.

The plots I sent are under WOT. The signal varies because things happen quickly and it is the CIS flapper that varies in it's setting, trying to keep up with things. That completely stops if you are at a constant throttle, e.g. at hot idle.

Cheers, George

[aigel]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
We're selling them now - they should be in the catalog today. It has already earned a spot in Wayne's toolbox as one of the most valuable tools...

-Wayne

Excellent Wayne! I had checked Summit Racing, and they don't even have it yet. This thing really rocks. All my gearhead friends are already getting in line for borrowing the gizmo.

Do you sell the accessories (aux. box, cables, extra bungs etc.) too? Of course I'll buy them from PP if you stock them!

George

[Lorenfb]

The key for all measurements is under load, which is not easy to do
without a dyno.