WRX versus Old 911 – Lets go there again

[amk]

A little while ago in a post I stated that I thought an old 911 (with race suspension and track tires) was fairly evenly matched against a stock WRX STi (Oz Spec). This was after doing a practice day at Wakefield Park where I was playing tag for a little while with an STi (in the wet), I came away with the impression that we were pretty evenly matched. This resulted in some interesting discussion, ranging from the other driver was clearly impaired in some way to all WRXs suck.

At one point some lap times from the October 03 Motor Magazine "Bang for your Buck" test where quoted:

"Rick Bates (professional rally and circuit racer) at Wakefield in out of the box new cars:

WRX STi 1.11.53
Boxster S 1.11.81
M3 (SMG) 1.12.00
WRX 1.12.84
Lotus Elise 1.10.44"

I couldn't compare times because I'd never done a timed lap before, but I promised to post once I did the first Porsche club sprint for the season, which was yesterday at Wakefield park…

So before we get to the hard numbers lets give this some context to make it comparable to a professional rally/circuit racer in a stock car:
- Yesterday was the first time I've done a timed lap.
- Prior to yesterday I've done a 2 day driving course at Oran Park and a 1 day training day at Wakefield, no other track experience (i.e. absolute beginner).
- The car has about 220,000 km on the clock, so the engine is probably not at its peak performance wise (when new it made 200hp/147kw).
- The car is a little down on stock weight, probably 10-20kg (rear seats and carpets are missing at the moment, stock is 2470lbs/1120kg).
- It has new firmer torsion bars and shocks, track tires (Yokohama A032R), semi race pads and has been lowered. Everything else is stock.

OK, drum roll, I managed a 1.16 (don't remember the 100'ths, might have been 1.16.6).

So I didn't manage to beat Rick Bates on my first attempt, sigh, but on the upside there's lots of scope for improving my time (I know just enough to realize that my line really sucked on some of those corners), shaving another 3-4 seconds off with some more experience does not seem inconceivable.

Apparently the club record is about 1.12 for the class I'm in, though I don't have any details on the car in question.

Anyway, in conclusion I still think an old 911 with suspension mods and race tires is a fairly even match on the track against a stock WRX/STi.

Regards,
Andrew.

[Victor]

Nice one.

But do not be too concerned about the WRX mob. They are more worried about Astra Sri Turbo's and such than old 911's.

See what I mean here:

http://forum.wrx.com.au/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2056

[dotorg]

For the vast majority of us with old 911's, its safe to say many new cars would wipe the road with us. Twice the power, modern suspension, computer tuning, etc? You can't compete with that.

My old S4 would rip my 911 a new one, and an STi would have ripped the S4 a new one.

I still have the 911 in the garage, and the S4 was traded for a truck, so that says something

[cegerer]

It's not how fast you go, it's how you go fast.

A friend recently sold his WRX and bought a new Golf R32. Not sure how it stacks up performance wise, but he says it has much better "feel" and quality. Looks better too!

[morganb]

IMHO its all personal feel. There are plenty of really fast cars out there but do all of them give you the driving experience you want. I want a whole package with braking, handling and feel and feedback as I'm driving. This is not something you can put in 0-60 terms.

[Matt Holcomb]

Andrew,

Have you read this thread?

Back At Calder

[Victor]

You mean this thread?

http://forum.wrx.com.au/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=434

Too funny.

[Adam]

I can't stand reading forums full of assinine "War Stories".

I especially despise the "I saw a Ferrari F50 blow a half-shaft trying to catch my 1986 Civic with a 500hp shot of NOS" type drivel.

[klaucke]

I can't stand reading forums wit syntax like dis. "Yo, ur WRX wit NOS is soooo fast, I bet u can lap b4 that Ferrari."

[Paul Thomas]

I am in a somewhat unique position since i own a 2003 WRX and a heavily moded early 911. Both are extremely fun to drive but are very different.

-The Subaru pulls very well when the boost comes on but you have to keep it spun up to get the most from the power.
-My 911 pulls hard from 2000 to redline and the power band is much broader.
-The WRX came with stiff springs but i think that the shocks are a little soft because it will roll hard under quick turns, so i would not feel good about a fast slalom course.
-The 911 has virtually no body roll
-The WRX in amazing in the snow

All in all i love the WRX for my daily driver and as fast as it is, the STi must be a handfull. With bigger sway-bars, the WRX should really be in its element on a tight auto-X course, but i am sure i could turn faster lap times on a road course in the 911.

Paul

[amk]

Victor, Matt, interesting posts, some of that stuff is pretty funny. The race experiences are reassuring, I didn't think my seat of the pants assessment was that far off the mark.

Paul, there where some WRXs and STis there (haven't got all the times yet), while out on the track doing some volunteer marshalling I noticed that most of them seemed to move around on their suspension a lot. I used to have a '99 WRX, felt fast on the street (I was young and foolish)... though I can't imagine I'd be any quicker in it on the track… my 911 is much lower and firmer… having said that I treat the 911 with more respect on the street than I did the WRX, the 911 feels just as quick but not as forgiving.

Regards,
Andrew.

[Victor]

Not particularly relevant, but here is another chuckle brought to you by the SIKM8 crowd.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/31/1080544547502.html

[stuartj]

Hey AMK
I posted those BFYB times. Congratulation on a succsessful run at Wakefield. I wouldnt be surprised tho, if yoyu find, that as do more on the track, you will realise the gulf represented by the difference between 1.16.6and 1.11.5. (Sti)

Also, if the Porsche class record is 1.12, with all due respect, I would guess that you are some way in terms of car set up and experience from picking up those 4.6secs after your first event.

Bates in a stock cars, you in a modded old 911 (hey, R rubber is worth 1-2 secs at most tracks after all- R rubber alone would take that Sti doen below 10's mebbe) it gets pretty hard to compare apples with apples. The important thing is that next you go, you go faster than you did last time, holding all else equal.

In my own case, I have official event times of the same driver in a Sub and in a 911 (me, my cars, same track) and in my experience, based on my times, there is 2.50-3 secs bwteeen the cars.

As Ive said before, mine is slow old Porker.

YMMV, ofcourse.

stuart 87 carrera

[obrut]

unfortunately they didn't time my hot laps - i'm sure i must have set the class record for the newly formed "being towed around the track by a recovery vehicle" class

i felt i really nailed the apex on turn 3 the second time i was towed in...

i'm also pretty sure that i can get towed faster than most wrx's too ;-)

[amk]

Just got the full results, the associate class was:

PRB ASC 1 1:04.4220
WRX Sti ASC 1:09.6780
WRX ASC 1:14.7350
Renault Clio ASC 1:18.1420
Nissan GTR ASC 1:18.8450
Nissan HR31 Skyline ASC 1:19.8630

I don't know what sort of mods/tires these guys had (should have had a closer look).

Stuart, I agree I've got a loooooong way to go. I got the corner onto the main straight wrong nearly every single time, think I came close to getting it right once, doh! Love the R-rubber, I'm sure it made a huge difference, with my skill level it was probably worth a fair bit more than 1-2 seconds. I'm hoping that by the end of the year I'll have improved by 2-3 seconds... I'd be extremely happy I manage 1.13s by the end of the year.

Obrut, but you looked really cool and that's the main thing

Regards,
Andrew.

[amk]

Guess I got the class record wrong, the guy who came first in class C did a 1.11.5...

944S2 1:11.5380
911 2.7 '75 1:12.6700
911 Carrera 3.2 1:13.4950
911 Carrera 3.2 1:15.5480
911 Carrera 3.0 1:16.6760

[Victor]

Covered in depth here too:

My Flatmate just bought a Subaru WRX....

[stuartj]

Originally posted by morganb
IMHO its all personal feel. There are plenty of really fast cars out there but do all of them give you the driving experience you want. I want a whole package with braking, handling and feel and feedback as I'm driving. This is not something you can put in 0-60 terms.

However, you can generally put it in lap times.

Victor, "post your kills" thread is a fockin hella funny.

stuart 87 carrera

[Hoffman912]

also remember.. the original 911 was the wrx of its day, dominating the world rally championchip..

vic elford is god...

[Victor]

Harry,

Can we recruit Vic to come back in a Cayenne? Will the WRC org allow it to run?