[David Inc.]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Uh, no, this is not some sort of misty eyed, rose colored glasses nostalgia. This absolutely was the reality in much of (if not most) the manufacturing world at one time. While no one goes into business to lose money, profit expectations were wildly different in the not too distant past. Many were happy to make enough money to make a comfortable living while at the same time "pursuing excellence" in whatever endeavor they chose. I've tried to explain this to you. This concept appears totally lost on you, so you deny it ever existed. I lived and worked it, as mentioned earlier. I wish you could have experienced this at some point during your career. It was wonderful.

Today, yes. In the not too distant past, this was absolutely not the case. Even the most mundane daily items were once built to a standard, not to a price. Just because you never experienced this does not mean it was never that way.

I have to say it does feel like rose colored glasses, or maybe it's company specific to your experience at Boeing. For example, while my company does target higher margins, it doesn't feel like any corners are being cut, and engineering takes pride in the product. Things are much faster because everything is faster now, but standards are held even when we may lose a job or two as a result.

To the bolded, I really have to wonder what you mean by that. First off, mundane items used to be much more expensive relative to the average income, and secondly, even if they were built to a standard it's not like nobody considered the cost to produce vs. potential sales price and position in the market (and if they didn't, is it any wonder they're not around any more?).

Originally Posted by KNS

My own experience on how most everything has cheapened and quality fallen:

Cleaning out my Dad's shop a couple of years ago my Dad had a bunch of tools handed down from his father who was a tool and die maker. I found a bunch of old tools, some, precision instruments dating from the 1920s and 30s. Many were Craftsman from Sears & Roebuck. Holding them in your hands you felt a certain weight and heft. I was astounded at the high standard of their construction and quality of materials. Some came in protective cases constructed out of wood or steel that were almost fit to serve as presentation cases for jewelry. Everything made in USA. Clearly these tools were from a different era.
It made me a bit sad to think what we've lost and that subsequent generations will only be familiar with what can be purchased at places such as Harbor Freight (certainly useful in it's own right).

Apologies for getting off topic...

Originally Posted by Paul T

I will also say, part of the problem is that the consumer has gotten used to cheap, disposable crap and doesn’t care about or appreciate true quality. At least a large portion of the population….so it works both ways. Many would not buy the more expensive, but much higher quality item, even if available.

These two go very well together. High quality tools are absolutely still available, made with pride either abroad or in the USA, but that's not what most people want to buy. 95% of people buying a ratchet are doing it for household chores or last-minute father's day gifts and they're not thinking about longevity and reliability over ten-thousand pulls at 200% rated load. It's the same with everything, the majority of people want cheap and disposable, not expensive and maintainable, and companies that operate in those markets know it.

Honestly, most of the small work in my garage has been done with a $20 Husky 1/4" ratchet set I bought twenty years ago. If that $20 set lasts and serves the purpose why would I have bought an industrial grade set ten times (or more) as expensive?

Originally Posted by jyl

The rest of the world caught up. US manufacturing was no longer dominant, business became harder and tougher, competing against countries with people just as smart and hard-working but poorer and hungrier. Profits got harder to make, businesses had to manage the margins and costs and assets as hard as the engineering and production. Newer, more advanced industries where the US was still dominant, generally high technology and high complexity and heavy science, were better places to be so US companies, people, and investment shifted to there. The companies, people, and investment that didn’t shift became poorer and some died out, and along the way they cut corners trying to hang on. This cycle keeps repeating, with other countries catching up in more and more advanced industries and the US shifting to even newer and even more advanced ones, and those who don’t or can’t shift gradually shrinking away.

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Another good summary. It's easy to be less mindful of costs when there's no competition.