[joeclarke]

I'm sure that many of us here are very worldly in our travels and familiarity with different cultures. Go and have a chat with a grave digger in Syria or a prostitute in Prague or a student in Saudi Arabia, or a student anywhere in the world for that matter (they eclipse even the venerable baby boomers in the exchange of information). If you were to have those discussions fifteen or even ten years ago many of them would look very different than today. Such is the case in the emerged (vs emerging) information age.

I have had those kinds of conversations and am convinced that no one can control or significantly moderate the open flow of information anymore my learned friends. That truism kicks the slats out or your "evil tryants bottle feeding their people poison about the evil west" argument as a premise for the tenure of those tyrants or the successful fomenting of hatred toward the US or anyone else.

Those hawkish perspectives that those ill-informed peoples "hate the west because we're rich and they're poor or we're immoral and they're just" are also just as much bunk. Otherwise countless other countries other than USA would be the focused subject of their ire. The only reason anyone else is even on the terrorist "hit list" is the mirror image of the Whitehouse simplistic definition of its enemy. You know that whole the-friend-of-my-enemy-is-also-my-enemy mantra. I've tried to offer different possible reasons for some of the worldly angst toward the USA but those reasons are rejected here out of hand.

I'm disappointed that JP and much of the rest of the hawkish element seems (frankly) uninterested in entertaining any different views on these subjects other than their own. I'm simply trying to provide a different take on the Iraq situation than the fearful pap, but many of you don't seem to want to consider anything outside of the content of Whitehouse press releases. Rather than engaging the subject in meaningful debate I see observations that are simply intended to minimalize either the credibility of the observer or otherwise devalue any contrary statements.

As an example - one doesn't have to even begin to argue the technical or philosophic merits of an opposing position if they simply reply with:

"I'll hand it to you, you've got the knee-jerk Liberal hymnal memorized. " A simple yet effective tactic that transcends further debate.

So be it. I'm not usually the martyrdom type- but you guys can go and stew in your own views. Slap those blinders up side your collective heads and continue to read Frum and those Whitehouse press releases to keep yourselves informed about the world. God help us all if the rest of the world conducted themselves that way. But thank God that that wont happen because the rest of the world is open minded enough to keep itself broadly informed. How's that for drama?

But that is probably the most important point in all this. The entire fawking world disagrees with the invasion of Iraq!!!!!!! Forget that certain countries joined the venture - the popular opinion polls in every country in the world except the USA were against the invasion. Not to mention that a sizeable chunk of Americans also did not support it. And that was at a time when people thought that there was at least a possibility that there were actually WMDs. I recently spent a bit of time in discussion with some students in Wien (look it up - not far from Munchen, I'm getting fiesty now) - the Whitehouse is a virtual laughing stock in it's continued attempts to substantiate the Iraq invasion now. (How about - At least have the gonads to admit that you screwed up big time and fess up that it really was about oil and take your lumps).

It boils down to something like 1% of the world on a head count basis that were behind the "war". I'm pretty much convinced that not counting Whitehouse personnel the majority of that 1% post here.

Does that overwhelming number count not mean anything to you hawkish elements or give you enough pause to give more consideration to the contrary view? Apparently not.

I have sighed my last sigh. I throw my hands up in exasperation.
I'll go argue with my wife instead. Thanks for indulging my final tirade on this subject.

Ciao