Hello
Sorry about the delay but I have problems on these discussions on the "edge" or very thin line. Thats why I refused to answer the other threads as my tounge is to limitet to find the correct tone.
I had several concepts and meltet it togehter so it repeats some things or has some gaps and jumps.
The previous concept just would had went on with posting some material and URLīs to other sites. And I found out that most here are not able to follow up and canīt divertysfy or seem lost to read and understand different sources as it isnīt tradtion to be aside the mainstream.
Iīm also not sure if anyone is really reading it. The thing startet as a counterwight to several posts on the 911 board showing a very unsymetrical point of view and I used some drastic and provoking ways to start a discussion with the "opposing" view.
Those mails should be a other insight from a other view but I donīt have the absolute perspective. A different perspective by standing aside looking into the same direction. This is like looking with two eyes to make flatland to a stereoscopic effect and see in third dimension. This will help on orientation but we still can not look behind shemes. This could be done by Birdseye when we rise the level from our standing points.
Now if you step on my shoulder you will see farer and if I step on yours i will have the same benefit but still we both look alone and have to discuss the view to see the shades.
A other way would be if we could discuss our sight with someone from the other end.
Maybe the other end is the enemy but talking and discussing is the human way to handle such things.
Just follow that thread and
http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/Forum26/HTML/000124.html think about if this is the way america should handle politic ?
I fear exact that pictures is implantet into many foreign countrys and Iīm scared this "funny" movie is spread worldwide.
But maybe it is just spread propaganda from terrorists to blame america ?
The internet is just a other battlefield.
This war isn't about an eye for an eye. It is about beating those who slaughter civilians as a way of achieving their goals.
Yes I see it the same way but I have problems to see a difference in the way to achive the goals. Isnīt the way the goal ?
Isnīt life the thing beetween start and end and only the footprints are the way to be messured in history ?
Germans history is manifestet as kick ass nation for the next generations becourse one leader definatet a ( realisticaly impossible ) goal and left his footprints in the face from millions ?
Just a simple question how high is the body count rate for a american compared to a other nation ? Would be 1:1 fair ? Or do we count the value by there income tax ?
And then look back in the history and start counting untill the roots to the first crusades or down to moses ?
What will you do if the indian nations start counting up ? What would you do if they follow the Israel idear to have a own nation and use brute force to get back there god given homeland. Donīt you thank god every morning that the indians are a higher society and forgive old storys and are happy with the "leftovers" from a "grand nation" ? Iīm sure the indians canīt follow the "american way" as it tears there soul between the values from there society.
You seem to be comparing Hitler to our US leaders. Try comparing him to Bin Laden.
Hitler was the puppet from industrial leaders who got money to fight the socialdemocratical partys. He was once votet by the people and after they realized that he isnīt a good guy, Hitler ( on the secound election he lost nearly his power ) used a Reichstagsbrand to get impowered by Emergency laws and to fight back the intruders. He just focused all the bad things happend onto the foreign enemys plus opposing party working for them, and declared they have no rights and have to get imprissioned. He startet a police state and controled the newspapers.
As most socialists and democratic leaders where jews ( or asimilatet jews ) and the basicall idears where definatet by jews ( Marx, Engels ) he tried to fight the "terrorismen" buy contoling them. The money he draftet from the jewish was used to heat up the german industrie witch gave bread and work to the normal man.
He also cleaned up all the mess to make a tidy clean country and everything had right and order. Germans believed that Hitler was the right choice and he did all to support that. He "correctet" all the stuff who hurtet the german nation and unitet it to his "old glory".
The only way to bring bread to people was to built export goods and mostly wheapons. Germany was one from the most successfull wheapon manufactorers and exportet worldwide. They even had a "wheapon testground" in spain showing the effective way from tactics and machines.
The industrial taxes where low and the nation pieacefull and workers where productive so foreign companys investet big money and also helped Hitler
to stay on top of it all.
In fact Hitler was the dream from a trully capitalizesed on organized society. The prisioners had to work for there income and to pay back there burden to the society. If they couldnīt work anymore they where "written off" by the bookkeppers. In the begining this was very simple as those people had to work until they died by themself. ( You know; "work gives freedom" )
Later to much people where inprisioned and needed more food then they had value ( or use by the industrie ) and so the not working people had been stoped to get feeded.
It was very "human" from hitler to use gas to save them the pain to starve to death.
There was a long discussion about gasing people as it cost to much and then the industrie offered a "special" price deduction as a sign of "goodwill".
The other issue was that the industie needed to control the sources and the prices to higher the profits and on the other side needed a new marked and the best would be a controled marked where the price is as well under industrial control.
So the war was just that what Hitler said: new Land and now sources for a growing industrial nation.
He allready sold the wins and the new land and sources to the industry who loaned the money and there sources to achive the new markeds. The loos on lifes and other values was calculatet and Hitler did a very clever politics untill he deceided not to share his profits anymore. This was the point when the industrie realized that he was out of control and some where writing off the investment as the major investment was the war and the maximum destruction from "hard" values. Doesnīt matter on witch side on both was profit possible and some companys even worked for both sides.
Hitler showed to much aspects that he canīt be controled and he also showed that he maybe will not share profits if he was the final winner.
So the industrie was interesstet to get rid of him and used there "power" on different levels to secure as much profits as possible.
Now if I compare Bush and Bin Laden to Hitler then both show aspects from him.
Should I make a list or how about going trough the threats and search the net for further input ?
The problem with power is that it has to be controled and to much powerwithout a real control is always a hitlersque situation.
The problem is that power seeking people normally are not the friendliest people and had to be clever and rude to make there way and they only seem to live for the power and the control behind that. This selection is given by mother nature to select the "strongest" leader and the problem is that we still stay in animal behaviour structures as those people have there own world witch isnīt direct the real world.
And the similaritys to the Bush situation is just that the congress gave him all the power to handle the situation and he handles it in a "powerfull" way. Yes he had enough people around him knowing how politics work and Bush tries to avoid blowing to much but he must play with the torch and make much noise and fire to defend territorial aspects.
If not he would have looked like a weak leader. But politic isnīt war the war is the end from all politics and the declaration from war was just to say we stop making politics and we go to hit someone or something to feel better and after war we can talk about some things maybe, if we like to, if not we just donīt listen or declare war again.
The strange thing is that history always have similaritys and my sight from hitler is different to yours. This gap is hard to explain. Hitler is a part from my history and I had to grow up with it and worked trough the "inside" story.
The american view is different and some aspects where just ignored as it would hurt the own roots. You know the indexfinger showing up has 3 other finger pointing yourself or you make a index fist like shooting someone.
I will never can say that Iīm proud to be a german with that history on the shoulder.
My grandfathers devoloped a overkilling nationalismen. ( Even if one far grandfather root was killed in Dachau for political reasons I canīt step out from the burden )
But I can say Iīm proud to be a human being.
Americans seem to have no problem to be proud about there country.
One detail to show the similaritys:
Hitler said: God bless germany
Bush says: God bless america
I say: god bless the world
(Yet Iīm follower from the more mother nature view Einsteins, see other thread ).
Who tries to wipe out Isreal?
Many to blame, how about Mr Sharon with his all or nothing policy or maybe better said absolute nationalismen. It is time to look close at Mr Sharon to understand why he isnīt acceptet by the arabic nations and there will never be piece with him and why he has fear to undersign the last UN treatys.
And he also did all to undermine the ( always weak )power from Araffat to splitter the palestinean.
It is very strange that natinalismn allways tends to kill people and if the nation seems to be in "danger" they vigilante there own leaders to correct the politics.
With Rabin on power we would have a complete other situation today and maybe with a other american leader too. It is pure speculation but from the european view Bush was to wrong answer to the wrong question and this is why some europeans are so much focused on the strange things happend in the staates and the election toped it all off. if this would happend in a third word staate the americans would have said the nation is undemocratic and uses stone age technology to cheat.
Who uses the differing of religion to go against others.
As far I see it: all have there "religion".
Religon is value of life and mother nature.
Read the answer from Cheiftain Seattle to understand that some people donīt have the same values and therefore a other religion maybe sharing the same god.
And from my point of view the american nation donīt share the same values like the indian nation or the german nation.
But we are on the same side and from the Bin Laden view are just a other shade of gray.
Who blames other people for what is wrong in their world?
???????????? I canīt understand the question as it implements that someone has a higher level to blame others.
The simple answer is that the world has to find a comon sense and rules to live togehter.
We have only one world. Maybe there are some ilands who think they are the world ?
Now there are several ilands thinking they are the world and this is maybe the major problem.
Who takes control of a country & brainwashes a people?
Power takes control, brute force and brain washing is done by simple reducing humans into animals who have no choice between get killed or kill others. Best brainwash is bombing and other terror. This seem to affect human being the most, doesnīt matter where or what and it makes it very easy to see the enemy to "return" the received goods.
We want to get Bin Laden & those like him so the futre for our children won't have him.
Yes I can support it but I fear the chosen way will water the bad roots and rise new fruits. If we have paradise on earth no one can promise heaven.
If you look at bin laden you will see that
we startet to make him a timebomb in the russian flesh and helped him generate massive funds and all intelligence needed.
Maybe
we where promissing things
we never should, as the prize will "cost"
us to much. Bin Laden doesnīt care money except for a tool so the prize must been very interessting in other power.
Yet "we" where gambeling as the chance for him to survive was not very high. Untill now he always keept knocking doors onto the the people who betrayed him. He had been patient as he had a deal with the Reagan/Bush ( or was it Olli North ? ) administartion ( pun sorry ) and Clinton wasnīt the "underwriter" in the unofficial pact. Clinton even tried to get "rid" of him but the money spend on antiterrorismen was soaked up by the congress and there lobby plus CIA and the army ( Yet they didnīt do anything usefull they even didnīt seem to read the basic things like van Crefeld ). Clinton also tried to calm down worldwide terrorismen and tried to tread the terrorismen equal to all religions.
And the Kosovo "war" was also to fight bin Laden ( & Co ) as it would have enlarged bin ladens plattform in europe and maybe burst the Turkey nation witch is a major influence in arabic world and a shield for Israel.
If you look at the Clinton "wars" you always will find that "we" helped islamic poeple against cristian ( serbs ) or other nationalists to avoid furter homeless islamic people and have a reputation not to act balanced by nation or religion.
[b)Like in your country there are differing opions on everything over here in the USA. You'll find that many of the sources of your posts were from the US, looking at ourselves. I think this is one of the strenghts of our counry, keeping us from getting some maniac leader. I don't agree with a lot of these people, though.[/b]
We are in a new world with free information and the way to make a own opinion by using the bandwide between the oposing informations. Call it information elite.
Yet only modern countrys have unlimitet acces.
China is controling and most third world countrys have no way to free informations or any information and this is why we have a free choice. But limited too from the Bandwide from the information.
If we would have free information we should have known how killed Kennedy, what destroyed the Maden of Sea over Lockerbie ( and why did the CIA covered terrorists in that trail and why did the german juristification followed that ), who piad Bin Laden and what funds have the CIA by supporting drug barons worldwide ( Yes the Taliban are major drugproducers )and how they use it without any control.
My posts where mostly in english as I searched english tounge informations to enlarge your bandwide. Wouldnīt had made sense to post arabic, hebrew or in german.
If I look into my german history then I see similaritys again. Hitler controlled the puplic information after several years and what wasnīt mentioned in german newspapers didnīt existet. There wasnīt much coverage about "bad news" or sights from foreign countrys. If you would have told a german in 1938 that Hitler will kill the inprisioned like animals or even worser ( have no word for it ) most germans wouldnīt have beleived it and where thinking about foreign lies.
Maybe this is areason why german people are more interesstet in politics and our leaders have a hard time and it is very hard to have the germans stand in a row behind a desicion.
They are many more like me thinking to much about useless stuff who canīt be changed normaly. But if to much goes into a wrong way the germans will raise and see answers.
We donīt except our leaders are superhumans without any mistakes and get suspicious if we have a superhuman with no misstakes and showing the way without discussing it and our newspapers are very hard on subjects and hard facts and both sides from every coin are shown yet they dig out real dirt and are a major power in politics. This is what we have learned from history.
For yourself, what would Bin Laden do if you were in his area & you wrote something controversial that he or the Talliban didn't like?
Iīm sure I got my punishment or get steped to a other world. When the taliban won the "war" they cleaned the "nation" by killing all people who could be able to think farer then there nose, but Stalin did the same.
Hitler did it a special way.
Every gouverment trys to control the puplic and to look the best way on the elections.
Yet politic allways support friendlier or moderate views.
But it is hypotetical as those people there have no informations and not very much choice.
And also we have free spech and can think what we want but there is a other way of censorship.
I postet just some things that where so unknown (?) to the US puplic so you never heard about it and are surprised. Yet all this stuff is very well known to german puplic and startet a lots of discussion and people are aware of the problem and can make there choice on a other level. But the fact is we are all followers from a industrial world and try to make the best out of it.
( just compare germany and america and you will find we have a other way )
Maybe it is better to crash into something without knowing it as you are not the Pilot and can do nothing. It is much harder to know the consequences and do your choice even knowing it will be your own end.
This is the right stuff that definates a "hero", to be silly enough to do something for a society without having a personal benefit. All those men lost there life on the Pitsburgh flight crash or the rescue men in the WTC are heros becourse they evaluatet there own life about values from there society. There value was not to earn much money or have a easy life.
Yet the shoe also fits to the terrorists who died for there values. Dosenīt seem to be easy life and many money too.
In one thread I was asking what is the value to have over your own life. What will you die for, just think about it and be prepared if you have to decide.
I can say if I had been on the lever to give my life to rescue the WTC I would have done it too. Yet Iīm also sure I would have done it to rescue the city of Kabul. Donīt ask me why this thought is just so deep in my brain but Iīm also scared about the other thoughts if I would have not tried to rescue Kabul if I would have the chance after the recent pictures maybe I would have tried to hit something that will destroy a symbol without to much loos on people. The taliban control station ? But those thoughts are a mirror to the WTC terrorists. I hope you see the point that we all have a very strange potential and finaly it is on us as single person to decide.
So heroismen is a personal thing and the personality is made by the society and there values. The personality is founded in small children and there way to grow up.
If you look at your society you will find many childreen growing up in a not very usefull way to your own society. Those childreen will become "terrorists".
The american society has other values then the german society. I can reflect my own society and know al those bad spots to work on it yet most germans in my generation share the same values and we are trying to form it in a "comfortable" way. No, germany isnīt the best society but the roots from freedom and piece starts in our own mind and our own society and there values.
Like said before i donīt like to talk about splinters in my friends eyes ( again if we call us friends we share the same eye level and history doesnīt matter as we look into a future and the way to it ) without facing my own problems but if you never have a mirror you will never see your own face.
It is much better to talk with your friends about problems then with your enemy. If you never talk about problems you life a very isolatet life........ or are god ?
Does god have problems ? Or he just isnīt talking about it ?
I'll ask you though, in your attitude against Hitler, don't degrade the brave German soldiers who fought to protect & defend their country.
In fact i give a damn on the brave german soliders as they had been a tool to aggression and didnīt protect there country.
While 2WW some 90 000 soliders where inprisoned not following orders.
Most of them had been to "human".
10% where killed by the judgment and the others wher send to the "special forces" where you got shot from both sides.
Some from those survived and till today they are not turned to heros and donīt get a pension from the army. Strange isnīt it.
And even stranger you will see the same happend to american veterans.
Bert Brecht said: Soldiers are Killers and this is also my headline. We donīt need soldiers we need policemen.
And we need a independed jury based on comon sense who is also able to control the police.
We donīt need Judge Dreeds or Robo cobīs.
Yet Paul Verhofen hit the nail on the political situation with his fiction. Just watch that movie and try to see the european view on the american society. ( This will safe me writing more stuff )
Grüsse,
Roland