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Originally posted by RallyJon
Now you're getting somewhere. So the union was helpful to the workers how, exactly? They couldn't protect the pensions of the very deserving (and apologies to Jim727 if he thought I meant they weren't) pilots. They couldn't protect their jobs either of course, but that's no surprise.
Why should a pilot--or anyone else--believe a company OR a union that blows defined-benefit smoke up their ass? What possible use is a union in an industry as cut-throat as airlines? They can't protect their members and their bargaining strength has a direct correlation to the likelihood of the airline going belly-up!
So who's most to blame: the unions who promise but can't deliver, management that negotiates contracts they know they can't honor because the union demands them, or the workers who work for this broken beast, see it from the inside, AND STILL INEXPLICABLY TRUST THESE TWO ENTITIES TO KEEP THEM OFF FOOD STAMPS IN RETIREMENT!?!
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Thanks for clearing that up.
I don't think there's any smoke in a defined-benefit plan. It's nothing more or less than an annuity. The problem is one of honesty and integrity. Airline mgmt treated the employee's retirement capital to be management's - not the employees to whom the annuities were contractually obligated. The obligation was known *in advance* not a surprise or a demanded escalation.
The question is a good one - who is more to blame; the parties who lived up to their obligation or the party who spent the money they previously promised. No different than deliberately taking out a mortgage that you have no intention of paying.
If the word "union" is removed from the discussion I think the principles become much clearer. Airline unions are very unlike others in that they are heavily focused on *your* safety.