Quote:
Originally Posted by MRM
WWB, that's the kind of thinking we in the hinterlands always suspected came out of Madison and Milwaukee 
Seriously, Communism was one of the greatest evils ever foisted upon mankind. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a usefull idiot (to use a Soviet term) or horribly naive and uneducated. It's not a subject that is open to debate. Count the bodies.
Rick and I have had this discussion before, but when you meet any mainland Chinese 40 years old or older, he or she survived the Cultural Revolution. Except they don't call it that there. They call it The Ten Years of Upheaval, or, more commonly, they just refer to the date. Nothing more needs to be said. You know how many millions of people died of starvation during the Cultural Revolution? Neither does anyone else. You know how many millions of people died of starvation under Stalin - in the 20s and 30s? Nope, that number is lost to history too. Too many to count accurately. And then the Terror came in the 50s and the blood really ran. 10 million? 12? 20?
Say what you want about Nixon and Reagan, but one quarter of the world's population lives an infinitely better life today because Nixon went to China. Talk to anyone who was there during the time and they will tell you things started to get better the day Nixon arrived. And the day Mao died things got even better.
And because Reagan had the balls to tell Gorby to tear down the wall, another quarter of the world's population lives better. I just heard a lecture by Allan Greenspan. He credited the success of the 1990s to the fall of the wall, not the tech boom. He said the utter failure of the planned economy lead to the fall. We in the west had assumed that the East lived at about 80 the standard of living as Western Europe. It turned out to be more like 30-40%. That's right, because of Communism all of Eastern Europe lived a standard of living that was one third the level of what it should have been. And that's just the standard of living, to say nothing of the lack of freedom.
That's why your hosts had such a wicked sarcastic sense of humor. They had to laugh at the absurdities of life or die. By the way, of Eastern Europe, Hungary was the most free, independent and western. You'd have loved East Berlin or Beijing. |
MRM, I think that you may have came to an incorrect conclusion per what I meant in that post. I totally agree with your assessment of the USSR's version of communism. My grandparents came from far Eastern Europe (actually right on the Russian border) so I have a quite intimate appreciation of what you said. What I meant was that communism/socialism per se is not bad...it's the way it's applied...and that's really not much different than what can evolve in a democracy...if you know what I mean.
The monstrous human devastation you mentioned was of such a scale that it is still etched in the minds of many of those people. Few Americans realize this and they often cannot understand the attitude and fears of the people who went thru that horrific period.
The "communism" thing is exactly my point per China. Our government had no problem demonizing "communism" as it applied to the USSR but with China it is almost never mentioned. This omission becomes glaring when you start to pay attnetion whenever they speak about China. It was always "Communist" Russia or USSR but how often do you see any USA offical refer to "Communist" China?
Also, you and I may have a difference of opinion on exactly how much of an impact Reagan had on the fall of the USSR. During a trip to Germany I had a very interesting talk with a stranger when I was visiting Saxen-Hausen (sp) park in Frankfort. This was around 1982 and he told me that there was no doubt that "the wall" would be gone because in his opinion it already was mostly symbolic. He explained that he was a trader who regularly did business with both sides and that "the wall" was a farce. As things turned out, it was a quite remarkable conversation since his predictions turned out to be totally correct the way things developed.
That's why I always smile when people pretend it was a Reagan thing.