Quote:
Originally Posted by Overpaid Slacker
WI - You're conflating "Issue" with "Opinion".
We can be intimately involved in the "internal affairs of a sovereign nation" at such nation's request -- humanitarian aid, logistics, support, etc. Helping restore power, water and government (pretty "internal affairs" from a classical position) in Indonesia involved no "clear and present danger" posed by Indonesia, just as one of countless instances.
So, I disagree with the thesis of your opinion.
Second "seldom ends well" -- what, like the outcome of the Marshall Plan, or the reconstruction of Japan, or preservation of South Korea, or a good chunk of Southeast Asia, or Grenada, or Panama, or Nicaragua, or Kuwait...
Also, your "seldom ends well" blithely glosses over the fact that things, while you might not think they ended "well", could have, and likely would have, ended "worse" for us or those on whose behalf we intervened.
Where things have ended sub-optimally, I'd argue that in most cases, the poor outcome was the result of a failure of our resolve to either (1) properly prosecute the effort and/or (2) stick around and finish it -- though (1) can easily beget (2).
Personally, I'd rather leave this to Colombia. They're reasonably well armed, and what, really, is Chavez going to do? He might attack, but any material invasion is madness (so ... likely?)
Nations do make promises to each other for support and mutual defense (NATO, SEATO, etc.) -- so grown up nations promise to intervene to protect the interests of allies even if such intervening nation's interest are not clearly and presently endangered. This has been the way of the world for much, much longer than 40 years.
Saying that nation's shouldn't do this is naive. They do, they have, they will. And reliable allies will see through on their commitments. I don't know exactly what promises for mutual defense or intervention the US has made to Colombia, but whatever they are, the US must follow through on them. The credibility of the US to its partners and allies is (and has been) worthy of blood and treasure.
What in Poland, France or England was worth American lives in the late 30s? I doubt by any present Liberal standard, Nazi Germany would have qualified as a 'Clear and Present Danger' to the United States.
JP
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Actually in this context, an "opinion" can be just about anything a person expresses as his own thoughts berift of positive proof or absolute knowledge. An "issue" on the other hand is a matter of public concern or a matter of debate, discussion, or dispute. So I respectfully disagree with your opinion!
And that is because we were in fact talking about an "issue" rather than an "opinion" per se.
Also, perhaps my wording was not clear enough per the "interferring in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation" since I most certainly did not mean "at such nation's request -- humanitarian aid, logistics, support, etc. Helping restore power, water..." or anything of that nature. I meant when we use military force to obtain our agenda AGAINST the wishes of the people or the legal rulers of that sovereign nation. Such as we did in Iran when we instilled the Shah and in Iraq when we deposed Saddam and the numerous times we have supported despots around the globe as we do today with the Royal Family in Saudi Arabia and Mushareff in Pakistan. The majority of the people of those nations supported little if any of our actions. That is what I was talking about.
As for Colombia, I spent more than a little time there and got to know the locals quite well. And I can tell you that for the most part they do not agree with much if not most of our actions.
Perhaps you could list which of your family members you would be willing to sacrifice for the "credibility" you mentioned that is so important and that the USA must preserve?
For me personally, although I have many Colombian friends and a great affinity for the nation (since we have done them mostly harm and no favors) there is not a single hair on any of my children or grand children that is worth involving ourselves militarily in their affairs at this time.