[CamB]

I see the discussion became more, uh, robust since I left work last night... this is good - it is actually incredibly difficult for me to understand the US mentality, but some of the stuff here helps.

I can only really comment based on what I see here (in NZ). I agree with nhurto - the US has a significantly higher rate of death than many other developed countries (note to Milu - were you actually in the US when you needed a gun or was it somewhere else). I really struggle to understand why - I've been to the US a number of times, I've been to Canada (felt pretty similar to NZ) and I've been to Europe (totally different). The societal attitude to guns is totally different in the US. From my observation:

- in NZ --> primary purpose of guns is for hunting. Guns available from hunting/gun shops
- in Europe
- Switzerland - every male (as a member of the armed forces) has a rifle locked away carefully in the cupboard. Guns otherwise not evident in society
- Italy - I definitely noticed the cabinieri (sp? - the police) wandering around with either a sidearm or a machine pistol (!!) - to a New Zealander this is bizarre
- finally, the US. Depends on the state. I noticed in Nevada that ~5-10% of a chain sports stores floor space was given over to guns - from rifles to handguns.

To me, this last bit was really quite unnerving.

But as I say, as hard as it is for me to find this "normal", it must be very difficult for an American to find this "bizarre".

Todd said:
"It's a numbers thing. Less guns available means less guns available."

The reason I have never seen a handgun in New Zealand is because there basically aren't any. I think I can confidently say the country is a safer place because of it.

But you can't achieve that in the US. Rather like the nuclear example provided by Tabs earlier, you can't just take them away in one hit ---> nuclear disarmament has been going on for years and both parties (appear to) want to accomplish it. Imagine trying to get the entire populace (good, NRA and criminals) to turn in their handguns at once.

Island and Milu - I ask you in response to your sentiment that you feel safer carrying a gun because a criminal might have one ---> what if you were virtually assured they weren't carrying??? There are a number of countries in the world where this is the case - it is reality not a dream (nightmare?).

Todd - do we really make it that hard to emigrate? I would have thought the only real issues would be getting your wife's qualifications recognised. That and a big ol' pay cut in US$ (albeit the cost of living is much cheaper in US$ too).

I'm sure I'll think of something else to add to this debate... but ultimately I agree that neither "side" is going to convince the other.

Ooooooh - I thought of something already. So to those who own guns for personal protection - you only own the minimum number, right? Just one?

Cam