Ultimate 930 Distributor, advance, retard, timing, Turbo lag, MSD, mod, thread.

[Tonger]

Originally Posted by Jonny H

We have an alternative for you Turbo guys. Gaining quite a following in the UK amongst engine builders.

CDI+ is Plug and play, multispark to 10000 RM, soft and hard limiters, fully mapable.

Bosch CDI replacement and classic car fuse panels

Available on Pelican, search '911-CDI'

Hi Jonny,

Thanks for your reply. Your CDI box looks like it is very well thought out. The question I had is whether the box can detect boost so that the boost-retard can be programmed in.

If it doesn't, how would you suggest managing that?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jonny H]

We have a spare input on the unit that could be used to reduce advance or switch to a different map.

Do you think the boost retard needs to be proportional to boost or can it just be a on/off based on going over a certain pressure?

I also wonder whether boost can be detected based on the rate of change of RPM. In other words, could retard be applied based on RPM rising at a fast rate?

[Luislang]

I need to replace the green wire on distributor. Can anyone point me to a supplier?

[alwaysflat6s]

Our host may still stock them. It is the same wire for later 911SCs and you can even use the 928 wire, tho it is much longer. If no luck with host, eBay or any variety of aftermarket source. I might note when I last needed one there were large variations in price. Good hunting.

[alwaysflat6s]

Distributor Signal Cable 93060290701 - Bosch - Porsche - 930-602-907-01 | Pelican Parts

Pelican has both "Porsche" and Bosch. There is no way I would pay the Porsche tax for what amounts to the same wire.

[Luislang]

Yowzer,
That's about $14 an inch.
Thank you for the help.

[bpu699]

As an fyi, you could just splice the wire...

Its coaxial. Splice the internal wire, and then the external. Works just fine. Then shrink wrap.

[Tonger]

Originally Posted by Jonny H

We have a spare input on the unit that could be used to reduce advance or switch to a different map.

Do you think the boost retard needs to be proportional to boost or can it just be a on/off based on going over a certain pressure?

I also wonder whether boost can be detected based on the rate of change of RPM. In other words, could retard be applied based on RPM rising at a fast rate?

This is a great question. I think the plunger action on the OEM vacuum can is more analagous to a progressive analog switch rather than a digital on/off type switch. However, it may not matter if the rate of boost rises quickly enough.

It would likely be hard to detect boost on the basis of the rate of rpm change. It would probably be easier to detect boost if you use something like a Hobbs switch. The nice thing about the Hobbs switch is that you could set the boost (ignition map change) threshold.

As far as the rate of ignition retard relative to boost, I have absolutely no idea. Hopefully one of the smarter guys (TK?) can give us an idea what would be best.

Thanks

[1979-930]

Originally Posted by Jonny H

We have a spare input on the unit that could be used to reduce advance or switch to a different map.

Do you think the boost retard needs to be proportional to boost or can it just be a on/off based on going over a certain pressure?

I also wonder whether boost can be detected based on the rate of change of RPM. In other words, could retard be applied based on RPM rising at a fast rate?

Could that input be controlled with a MSD 8762 boost timing controller? It uses the boost signal to retard timing. Here is a link to the wiring instructions if it's used with a MSD ignition.

http://documents.msdperformance.com/8762.pdf

Originally Posted by Luislang

Yowzer,
That's about $14 an inch.
Thank you for the help.

Rawknee told me this guy charged him $10,000 and inch.

SoCal Phalloplasty, Penile Enlargement Surgery, Penis Lengthening and Penis Widening with Alloderm, Glanular Enhancement, Reconstructive Surgery by Renowned Beverly Hills Phalloplasty Surgeon

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by 1979-930

Rawknee told me this guy charged him $10,000 and inch.

SoCal Phalloplasty, Penile Enlargement Surgery, Penis Lengthening and Penis Widening with Alloderm, Glanular Enhancement, Reconstructive Surgery by Renowned Beverly Hills Phalloplasty Surgeon

Actually Deez, that charge was for reduction surgery, so the wimminz would no longer be so intimidated and afraid (paying for custom made pants was getting old, and expensive, too)!!!!

[icemann427]

^^^^^

Yep, Knees is the man!

[TurboKraft]

Originally Posted by Tonger

This is a great question. I think the plunger action on the OEM vacuum can is more analagous to a progressive analog switch rather than a digital on/off type switch. However, it may not matter if the rate of boost rises quickly enough.

It would likely be hard to detect boost on the basis of the rate of rpm change. It would probably be easier to detect boost if you use something like a Hobbs switch. The nice thing about the Hobbs switch is that you could set the boost (ignition map change) threshold.

As far as the rate of ignition retard relative to boost, I have absolutely no idea. Hopefully one of the smarter guys (TK?) can give us an idea what would be best.

Thanks

It should be proportional to boost.
Ideal would be to have it be MAP-based, signal from the throttle body "T" where the WUR gets its signal.

[Jonny H]

Originally Posted by TurboKraft

It should be proportional to boost.
Ideal would be to have it be MAP-based, signal from the throttle body "T" where the WUR gets its signal.

Thanks TK. A MAP sensor is on our roadmap for the CDI+ product.

[hannu_911]

Originally Posted by Jonny H

Thanks TK. A MAP sensor is on our roadmap for the CDI+ product.

Any update on this MAP sensor on your roadmap?

[smurfbus]

If you only need a MAP sensor I have several very cool 3bar billet sensors made in Finland. 50eur for one or 90 for two.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6RqXGaH_zSUZUM1bTdwX0tkbmc/view?usp=drivesdk

[hannu_911]

Thanks for the offer Ola. Actually I'm just now re-starting my 930.62 engine rebuild project and checking the options for the ignition (among the other things).
The current distributor is for some reason 0 237 302 009 (PGFUD6(L) 3.3 Cal (1/78-6/80) 930.63).
PET says that the original has been 0 237 301 006 (PGFUD6(L) 3.3 Japan 930.62,65)
I have also 0 237 302 034 (PGFUD6(L) 3.3 RoW (MY 83-) 930.66) that I could use.

With this CDI+ I could use the current 0 237 302 009 distributor and just replace CDI with CDI+. All would still look just like original.
But how to handle boost?

Status of my engine project is that it has been boxed for few years with all parts cleaned and the mechanic (=me) has been waiting for the inspiration. New plan could be that maybe I could get it running 2020.
What I already have is K7200 + Fabspeed heatexchangers + Blown6 IC + SC cams. Other than those I plan to keep the engine looking like the original - CIS will remain.

[gsxrken]

Speedy- snipped your excellent post to ask a question specifically about the part I underlined- “The solenoid valve remains OFF until a temperature switch in the oil flow reaches 35C.”

I’m trying to return my disconnected solenoid into service but I’m not sure I have the wiring integrity to do so. My 1986 930’s lambda O2 sensor is long gone, and the solenoids for the distributor and air pump came in the glove box when I bought the car.

Where is this temperature switch? I assume it’s the one on RH timing cover with single green wire to it.

In testing with engine off, fuel pumps running, stone cold engine, I have 0.02V to the solenoid connector. Not sure why. This is your Idle (cold Start) scenario below. Connecting the solenoid to the wire results in the solenoid staying off.

When I jump the wire on the temp switch that voltage reading goes up to 0.03V. I would have thought this would simulate your Idle (Warm) condition and open my solenoid. It does not. Connecting the solenoid to the wire resulting to start solenoid still being off.

Do you know of another way to jump something to simulate Idle (warm)?

Originally Posted by Speedy Squirrel

Here is the whole horrible story of how everything works, if you can stand it.




Figure 1 – Throttle body port connections

Referring to Figure 1:

I - This is ported vacuum. The port is about 2mm BELOW the throttle plate when the throttle is closed. It has vacuum from closed throttle (idle) to about 1/3 open throttle, and it has pressure under boost. A hose goes from this port goes to a solenoid valve that, when not powered, vents the back side of the distributor capsule to atmosphere. It comes from the factory with a Blue hose.

Here is how it works:

Idle (cold start) - There is no vacuum to the front side of the distributor from port V because the throttle is closed. The solenoid valve for port I is turned OFF, so there is no vacuum to the back side of the distributor capsule from port I. The solenoid valve remains OFF until a temperature switch in the oil flow reaches 35C. With no vacuum on the back of the distributor capsule, timing is advanced and the idle speed is elevated...

Idle (warm) - There is no vacuum to the front side of the distributor from port V because the throttle is closed. The solenoid valve for port I is turned ON once the oil temperature reaches 35C, so there is vacuum to the back side of the distributor from port I. This retards the timing at idle to reduce NOx emissions, and the idle speed is lowered to the warm idle speed (~950 RPM)...

[Speedy Squirrel]

ou will need to have the Fuel Enrichment Control Unit still in place and operational. it is located under the front seat. The distributor mounted control capsule will need to be still functional. The solenoids must both be still on the car, and plugged in.

Step 1 - Test distributor mounted control capsule. Connect the blue hose from the back side of the capsule directly to Port I on the throttle body. The idle should go up when the hose is disconnected from the distributor capsule and plugged. It should go down when re-connected to the distributor capsule. It his test fails, there is no point going on. The capsule has failed and is NLA.

Step 2 - If Step 1 passes, reconfigure the blue hose to the correct arrangement, from Port 1 to solenoid, and from solenoid to the back side of the distributor capsule. Disconnect the solenoid connector. Use a jumper wire to ground one pin on the solenoid to the engine (does not matter which one). Apply 12V to the other pin from some source like the rear heater fuses. Removing and connecting power should make the idle speed go up and down. If not the solenoid will have to be replaced.

Step 3 - If steps 1 and 2 pass, disconnect the Green/Yellow wire from the 35 C thermoswitch in the front left chain housing cover. Connecting/disconnecting the wire to ground should cause the idle speed to jump up and down. If it does not, there is a problem with the Fuel Enrichment Control Unit, or the wiring to it. That is a more complex diagnostic job not coverable in a post.

[gsxrken]

Thanks for the detailed instructions.
So, I can confirm both sides of my vacuum can hold vacuum and alter the idle when mityvac’d.
Step 1 passes.
Step 2 passes.
Step 3 I will try to reproduce this weekend. If you didn’t mis-type, you mean that I should disconnect the switch from the front left chain cover, which is very hard to access with the turbo piping coming and going right there. I believed that thing was strictly for the cold start injector and fed power during starter cranking only. Perhaps I was wrong, and your test is free. I will report back.

PS- you also specifically noted that “The solenoids must both be still on the car, and plugged in.” That is NOT my case at the moment, but I can and will pull the intercooler again for the 200th time and reattach the air pump solenoid and wiring to that solenoid just in case the computer under the seat needs to feel it on the wiring.

PPS- right now I’m driving around with the blue hose solenoid plumbed in as factory and plugged in. My timing is roughly 10 BDTC now at idle because of that retard being blocked off by the solenoid, and I’m not sure if it ever opens right now. Thus step 3 test...

I can actually detect a double advance about a minute into a cold start when I assume the thermostatic switch in the breather cover opens and permits vacuum to the other side of the vacuum can. The idle rises a few hundred immediately.

[Fixer]

My backdate 77S is fitted with a 79 930 drivetrain.
I shortened the 4 speed 27 mm to fit the chassis.

I use a Classic Retrofit CDI + and have CIS.

https://youtu.be/qHa47pvX1Kw

My OE distributor is set to make 24-26 degrees timing advance at idle up to redline. My vac retard is capped, boost retard is obviously connected and works.

So 0 degrees on the chart is reallly 24-26 degrees advance. This is their "Overlay" function which will allow boost retard to operate. I can still add or subtract timing under boost retard if I wish.

I'm pulling down timing at idle then adding some advance before boost comes on. after 4000 rpm I'm retarding back down to 24-26 degrees advance and my dizzy pot retards on boost as designed.

"Bandit" runs very well, AFRs look good. I run 1 bar sometimes 1.2 bar boost, many times 1.4 bar boost due to my Turbosmart boost controller not doing it's job. I have only a .7bar spring installed and the manual boost controller set all the way down. My Autometer Vac/Boost gauge pulls input directly off my brake booster. AFR at idle about 11, off idle 14-15, boost 11ish.

I use 93 octane and add either Lucas or Sea Foam brand injector cleaner to lubricate the injectors and add octane (according to the bottle) I just add a small amount every time I top off the tank. My motor has custom headers (uses euro CIS) i kept my Mahle pistons but added CP rods, welded the oil scavenge drive off my stiock cam to my NOS 964 cams, K27/7200, TiAl, big 964 style I/C. I opened up the intake manifold and heads 4mm. I cannot complain about performance.

Does anyone else run these injector cleaners, I use them always. I have new 009 injectors, I tested flow rates.

Matt







Bandit is all steel and uses a lead acid batt and weighs 2150 with 6 gallons of premium.