Project 930 The Resurrection

[TurboKraft]

Yes, and Charlie and Rosemary of Wrightwood are just good people, too.

[j911brick]

I agree Chris. Quality has really gone down from all the top suppliers:VR , Mahle, Goetze, etc. Nothing can be taken for granted anymore.

[sjf911]

Well, crap, I already have a V-R set ready to go into my build. Can you post the measurements for the oil seals and the cam o-rings?

[TurboKraft]

Yeah, thought we hadn't left any stone unturned.
Don't get me started on the stuff Mahle's been foists off on the Porsche air-cooled market lately...

[gsmith660]

Thanks Chris appreciate the prompt response, as for the gasket set lemme guess "made in china"

Originally Posted by TurboKraft

Drained the fuel and replaced it, hooked up a new battery, disconnected the fuel pump relays (but one pump still ran anyway? kill the pumps...). Cranked it until there was oil pressure, reconnect fuel pumps, car fires right up. Yay! Doesn't idle great, but the TPS needs to be recalibrated in the ECU now that the throttle is working correctly.

But the bad news is it doesn't have the high oil pressure you would expect on a cold, fresh engine. It starts high, around 60psi/4bar, but within 15 seconds or so falls to roughly 15psi/1bar. The factory Tech Spec book calls out 4.5bar @ 5,000rpm with oil temps between 80-100C. At 4,000rpm we're getting ~23psi, confirming the dash gauge's reading by using a separate oil pressure gauge connected to the engine. Pressure is measured at the main oil galley, oil supply to the turbocharger + Motec oil pressure sending unit.

A few weeks ago we had this happen on a fresh built 3.3L. After testing and measuring everything that could be thought of -- restricted oil supply to engine? bad oil pressure relief valves or springs? -- and consulting with many other engine builders (thank you Jerry, Steve, Henry, et. al.) we pulled and split the engine. The culprit was not a crank plug falling out, or forgetting an oil pump seal. Instead, the oil seal between the oil pump and the 1-3 side crank case was short. Over 1mm shorter than a factory replacement seal. 3 days after pulling the engine it was back together, installed, running, and had good oil pressure. Lots of time and expense wasted because Victor Reinz' quality control has gone down the toilet.

Lest you think that's an unfair assessment of their QC: in the same gasket sets, the small red chain tensioner o-rings that seal to the chain box covers were too small. They leaked on a car, and when we replaced with genuine seals the fit was tight and the leak stopped. We checked it on the next 2 engines, and both gasket sets had undersize o-rings. Makes you wonder what else in the gasket set is out-of-spec, too.

We're doing similar oil system tests on this engine to see if it is anything dumb and obvious, but it's not promising so far. If it has to come apart, it's getting genuine gaskets.


And if the old seals don't measure up to the new factory seals, then the 3.8L ITB Twin Turbo has to come apart, too. Much less labor to take it apart now and be sure, than risk having it go into a chassis for testing and dyno tuning, only to have bad oil pressure, too.

[onboost]

Damn! Really sorry to hear this.. good catch however!

Thanks for passing that info along.. guess I'll be looking a little closer at gaskets and seals from now on.

[SCHNELE]

Please if that is the case with the Reinz seals, don't use that crap in my engine, especially for something as critical as oiling.

[jwasbury]

Damn that blows...

Its hard to imagine how simple things like that can be screwed up. When I built my engine, I discovered a defective cam chain tensioner idler arm in my big box of new parts from Pelican. I was pleased at myself for noticing this during assembly, but it was pretty obvious that it was bad as the idler pulley wheel would not spin freely once installed. No way I would have noticed one of those rubber seals being too short.

Chris, anyway to verify the oil pump seal is the problem without disassembly and measurement?

[MikeD930]

Man...that stinks! But it's a good thing Chris suspected low oil pressure. Most shops may not noticed it and perhaps deny it's their problem when the engine suffers oil starvation problem!

Chris,
Many thanks for reporting this and letting us know of your findings.

[Ken911]

so how much more does a writewood gasket set cost?

[willtel]

Originally Posted by Ken911

so how much more does a writewood gasket set cost?

EBS Racing sells them. For the "engine block" kit the Reinz set is ~$50 and the Wrightwood set is ~$100, so about double, but that is pocket change for one of these engines.

Don't worry Linc, it will all work out. It is much better to figure this stuff out while the car is in Arizona than 1000 miles down the road with a spun bearing.

[Ken911]

Oh ok i'm not really sure what to order next to for my efi build since it will have a 3.2 intake. and 964 lower valve covers. probably have to just buy everything indiviually.

[nocarrier]

I seem to get better quality out of Elring.


Chris, Just curious, but if you let the engine sit for a few minutes and crank it back up, does the oil pressure go back up to 60psi and then fall back down after 15 seconds.

Or do you have to wait for it to be completely cold.

Just wondering.....I could be completely wrong but it sounds like it is cavitating.

Is there anyway that could happen on these engines?

[TurboKraft]

Up until this group of engines, I've had no problems with Victor Reinz products. They've been OE for Porsche as well as other European automobiles, and I've used and sold their gasket sets for nearly 20 years.

But now QC issues are cropping up, as we've seen in other major OEM brands: Mahle, Goetze, Bosch... Yes, even Bosch, once *the* gold standard, now chasing low cost manufacturing and resulting in reduced quality.

Live and learn, it's genuine Porsche or Wrightwood from now on. Even if it costs double, it's a helluva lot less than the $15k+ cost of 3 complete 911 Turbo engine disassembly & re-seal jobs.

Nocarrier -- yes, after sitting it will make good oil pressure for a few seconds and then drop. We had a similar thought that were were loosing oil supply to the pump when we had this on the other recent 930 engine. But the oil tank was clean and free obstruction, nothing blocking oil from draining into the "S" hose, which was also unobstructed. The tube below the oil cooler was clear, and shining a light through it you can see the pressure gears of the oil pump. So I can't really see any way to cavitate the oil pump, no. The oil circuit on these engines really isn't that complicated.

[quattrorunner]

dang

[JBurer]

Good vibes for a quick and easy fix from over here on the east coast!

[Adam144]

Just read this entire thread earlier today. Best of luck with the build, looks like some really nice work by TurboKraft.

A shame to see such hack work from the previous techs.

[brcorp]

Anxiously waiting for some good news....

[SCHNELE]

tear down underway, Wrightwood seals going in.

[Rextang]

I came across this quote and saw it fitting for this thread:

"Patience means active waiting and enduring. It means staying with something and doing all that we can working, hoping, and exercising faith; bearing hardships with fortitude, even when the desires of our heart are delayed. Patience is not simply enduring, it's enduring it well." - Dieter F. Uchtdorf

On the other hand: