Best turbo for my setup ?

[klefroid]

A while back I have been in contact with Chris Carroll from Turbo Kraft for a new turbo.
But haven't bought one yet due to a lot of problems to solve first
He told me that a Garrett gt35r would be a good turbo for my setup.
I'm having euro (row) 1977 3.3 turbo inter-cooler costum headers and muffler, SC cams, AEM air to fuel gauge.
I want to install a water/methanol injection kit AEM and looking out for a bigger IC.
So here it comes:
The Garrett needs some fabrication to make it fit and I want to know if there is a good option to have a bolt on turbo so that I don't need to do those mods.
Also a while back before I was in contact with Chris Carroll I bought a K27 7006 from evil bay for $350. A Chinese rip off... I learned my lesson ! So now I'm looking for a easy to install turbo or is it really worth to install a gt35? I know that the k27 7200 and 7006 are good but is there any better for this setup? It is possible that I might modify the heads in the future bud I'm not sure of that.
What whp can I expect for this setup?
Where would you go for?

Edit: I still run the stock waste gate with the stock spring.
I run E98 fuel

[81Kremer930]

The easiest to install is a k27-7200, or 7006. These are direct bolt on. How much horsepower are you looking for?

[RarlyL8]

The 930 oiling system and attachment points were designed for use with the BW/KKK 3LDZ and K27 variants. All others must be adapted in some way. K27/K29 hybrid is an option that will bolt on. Spools as quick as a 7200, pulls as hard as a 7006 and will support 500HP. They aren't cheap but neither is the Garrett once all the adaptions are made to install it. The Garrett doea have options to tailor the boost range if that is needed.

[klefroid]

Originally Posted by 81Kremer930

The easiest to install is a k27-7200, or 7006. These are direct bolt on. How much horsepower are you looking for?

let's say as much as possible :-)
I really don't know, it's not that I have a goal... I was a bit bored to see a audi A3 chasing my back. So the row cars have 300 hp and a different fuel head? That's why I'm a bit confused when reading other threads. that's why I ask the same question as many others did before me. I did read a lot on the forum here but a lot of US cars here... when do I run out of fuel? Is it necessary to have a modified wur or am I good?
Does the afr changes when you have water / methanol injection?
Like you see I still have a lot of question even after reading a lot of threads.
My English is far from perfect so I do not understand some posts to.

[klefroid]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

The 930 oiling system and attachment points were designed for use with the BW/KKK 3LDZ and K27 variants. All others must be adapted in some way. K27/K29 hybrid is an option that will bolt on. Spools as quick as a 7200, pulls as hard as a 7006 and will support 500HP. They aren't cheap but neither is the Garrett once all the adaptions are made to install it. The Garrett doea have options to tailor the boost range if that is needed.

Is the K27/K29 hybrid a modified turbo or can you just buy them in a place where they sell turbo's?
If I import a turbo from the US I probably need to pay Import duty & taxes when importing into Belgium? Or is there an other way?
If it was you, would you go for the K27/29 or the gt35r?
Thanks for your input.

[smurfbus]

Stock fueling is not good for much over 400 I think, others can shime in for better accurate values.

Dont trust on meth for AFR or you will be screwed when your wmi fails, IMO. I have wmi too but only for extra cooling.

[klefroid]

Originally Posted by smurfbus

Stock fueling is not good for much over 400 I think, others can shime in for better accurate values.

Dont trust on meth for AFR or you will be screwed when your wmi fails, IMO. I have wmi too but only for extra cooling.

You mean 400 whp or @ the flywheel?
Well same for me. but there is a safety cut off when it does fail, no?
I have been reading a similar thread you started today :-)

[smurfbus]

I will let others like Brian to advice on closer hp numbers as they have those tested. There is no safety cut for lean fueling! Only for boost in stock form. My car went lean @5000 before I bought a extra controller for my BLwur. You need modified fuel head if you want power

[RarlyL8]

Only AFR readings will tell you if and when you need more fuel up top.

Is the K27/K29 hybrid a modified turbo or can you just buy them in a place where they sell turbo's?
If I import a turbo from the US I probably need to pay Import duty & taxes when importing into Belgium? Or is there an other way?
If it was you, would you go for the K27/29 or the gt35r?

Yes the K27/K29 hybrid is a modified turbo. We carry them as well as many other shops.
Yes you are responsible for import duty.
If it were me there is no option. I can buy and sell any type of turbo I wish and it won't be Garrett. They moved operations to Mexico so are no longer US made. They also do not fit the 930. Any turbo that requires reduction in oil flow over the standard 930 system is a big red flag to me. Oil is the only thing that cools the turbo. Yes Garrett is very popular and has many followers. You've done your homework and can use the info to choose what is best for you.

[TurboKraft]

Hi,

So you are running e98, which acts like 116-octane (in our experience on dyno) allowing a lot more ignition timing, BUT requires 30-40% more volume to avoid running lean.

"I'm having euro (row) 1977 3.3 turbo inter-cooler costum headers and muffler, SC cams, AEM air to fuel gauge.
I want to install a water/methanol injection kit AEM and looking out for a bigger IC."

I do not understand from this statement whether you have a 1977 3.0L Turbo with a 3.3L intercooler, or if you have rebuilt it as a 3.3L, or something else.
If you have a 3.0L, it doesn't flow as much fuel as a 3.3L CIS does.

Regardless, I would say your fueling will be marginal, at best.


When does a 3.3L Euro CIS run out of fuel? Around 400whp.

Going from memory here..
1982 Euro 3.3L
GHL headers, GT35R, open exhaust, Garretson IC, SC cams:
380whp @ 0.7bar boost, had to lift off throttle around 5,300rpm
But it was leaner than 12.5:1 AFR from about 4,800rpm upwards, and the camshaft timing allowed it to build power until ~5,800rpm so couldn't use all the revs available.

Next completely went through the CIS -- filter, full voltage to pumps, check pressures and pump flow, rebuild FD, adjustable WUR, cleaned & flow-check injectors. Played with the ignition timing. A lot of time/effort/money to get it working as well as it could.
Got to approx. 415whp at 0.9-0.95bar -- then out of fuel again. Still could not run it to the useful redline. Could not run the 1.1bar-1.2bar the engine was otherwise capable of handling.

If you're pumping e98, you'll be out of fuel a lot earlier, and thus severely limited in useful rpms and power.
Worse still with a 3.0L Turbo CIS.


Back to turbocahrgers:
The GT35Rs support ~575whp on a 930. Quick spooling, easily customized (many housing options). But yes, a little more work to install. We make and sell all the installation pieces in the turbo kit.
My opinion on their performance is clear, not going into that again.

The K27 supports 455hp flywheel all-in, and is more of a bolt-in out of the box, but it is NOT 100% bolt-on for a 930:
- The compressor outlet is a conventional 2" round with a beaded lip, made to take a 2" hose coupling. It does not have the o-ring of a standard 1978-89 3.3L.
This can be converted by installing one of our K27 adapters, which frequently requires a lot of file-fitting of the compressor housing (BWK castings haven't been very consistent the past decade...). Or, Pelican sells the version whereby you cut off the compressor outlet to the correct height and epoxy on an o-ring adapter.
- The turbine housing offset is 10mm taller than on a stock 3LDZ turbocharger. So either
a. modify your stock turbo/muffler hanger bracket (cut, weld), or
b. leave it out (bad), or
c. machine 10mm off the turbine housing outlet flange, re-machine the M10x1.5mm holes to the proper depth -- a pain in the butt

Final note: the K27 turbocharger can be disassembled and turned into a "Compact K29" by installing a a K28 compressor wheel, and doing a lot of machining open the comp cover and back plate. At 1.0bar on a 3.3L, it gains 22-25whp over a K27, at the cost of marginally slower boost response.


BTW -- K27s are temporarily available again, and our host also sells them.

[smurfbus]

I'm sure he meant RON 98 equal to 93.5 US Octane as there is no ethanol 98 ( we have only E85) on pump in europe like maybe in brasil.

[Tippy]

Here's something to think about and why I'd choose the Garrett. You have a compressor that is good to pretty big power, and a turbine that will have FAR less backpressure than the K27.

So, you have easier airflow and backpressure through the turbine on and off boost freeing up a lot of power.

Never underestimate how much power is left on the table from high backpressure!!

[Uncle]

Has anyone said Holset yet.

[Tippy]

Mines going up for sale very soon...

[quattrorunner]

The mods for going Garrett are really not a big deal. And the quality of Garrett is great.
They're not cheep. There has been talk of the Borg Warner turbos on another thread and I don't think there are much in terms of modifying for that turbo either. They're not as pricey.
I'm happy with my Garrett.

[klefroid]

Originally Posted by TurboKraft

Hi,

So you are running e98, which acts like 116-octane (in our experience on dyno) allowing a lot more ignition timing, BUT requires 30-40% more volume to avoid running lean.



I do not understand from this statement whether you have a 1977 3.0L Turbo with a 3.3L intercooler, or if you have rebuilt it as a 3.3L, or something else.
If you have a 3.0L, it doesn't flow as much fuel as a 3.3L CIS does.

Regardless, I would say your fueling will be marginal, at best.


When does a 3.3L Euro CIS run out of fuel? Around 400whp.

Going from memory here..
1982 Euro 3.3L
GHL headers, GT35R, open exhaust, Garretson IC, SC cams:
380whp @ 0.7bar boost, had to lift off throttle around 5,300rpm
But it was leaner than 12.5:1 AFR from about 4,800rpm upwards, and the camshaft timing allowed it to build power until ~5,800rpm so couldn't use all the revs available.

Next completely went through the CIS -- filter, full voltage to pumps, check pressures and pump flow, rebuild FD, adjustable WUR, cleaned & flow-check injectors. Played with the ignition timing. A lot of time/effort/money to get it working as well as it could.
Got to approx. 415whp at 0.9-0.95bar -- then out of fuel again. Still could not run it to the useful redline. Could not run the 1.1bar-1.2bar the engine was otherwise capable of handling.

If you're pumping e98, you'll be out of fuel a lot earlier, and thus severely limited in useful rpms and power.
Worse still with a 3.0L Turbo CIS.


Back to turbocahrgers:
The GT35Rs support ~575whp on a 930. Quick spooling, easily customized (many housing options). But yes, a little more work to install. We make and sell all the installation pieces in the turbo kit.
My opinion on their performance is clear, not going into that again.

The K27 supports 455hp flywheel all-in, and is more of a bolt-in out of the box, but it is NOT 100% bolt-on for a 930:
- The compressor outlet is a conventional 2" round with a beaded lip, made to take a 2" hose coupling. It does not have the o-ring of a standard 1978-89 3.3L.
This can be converted by installing one of our K27 adapters, which frequently requires a lot of file-fitting of the compressor housing (BWK castings haven't been very consistent the past decade...). Or, Pelican sells the version whereby you cut off the compressor outlet to the correct height and epoxy on an o-ring adapter.
- The turbine housing offset is 10mm taller than on a stock 3LDZ turbocharger. So either
a. modify your stock turbo/muffler hanger bracket (cut, weld), or
b. leave it out (bad), or
c. machine 10mm off the turbine housing outlet flange, re-machine the M10x1.5mm holes to the proper depth -- a pain in the butt

Final note: the K27 turbocharger can be disassembled and turned into a "Compact K29" by installing a a K28 compressor wheel, and doing a lot of machining open the comp cover and back plate. At 1.0bar on a 3.3L, it gains 22-25whp over a K27, at the cost of marginally slower boost response.


BTW -- K27s are temporarily available again, and our host also sells them.

Sorry for the late response!
This is such great info! Thanks to all
The car is original ROW 3.3 , they started making the 3.3 past mid 1977.
I'm a bit concerned about that oil cooling thing.
A Garrett needs a oil restrictor so that turbo has to cool down by that tiny hole?
What if that restrictor gets blocked by something in the oil line?
This would mean that the turbo get's seriously damaged?
To be clear, my headers are build to fit a K27 because it was on the car that time (that Chinese 7006 turbo) I know many others did it before but still I'm a bit concerned.

[klefroid]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

Only AFR readings will tell you if and when you need more fuel up top.



Yes the K27/K29 hybrid is a modified turbo. We carry them as well as many other shops.
Yes you are responsible for import duty.
If it were me there is no option. I can buy and sell any type of turbo I wish and it won't be Garrett. They moved operations to Mexico so are no longer US made. They also do not fit the 930. Any turbo that requires reduction in oil flow over the standard 930 system is a big red flag to me. Oil is the only thing that cools the turbo. Yes Garrett is very popular and has many followers. You've done your homework and can use the info to choose what is best for you.

Also thanks for the info!
I've been reading another active thread http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/804514-turbo-recomendations.html
What about the S200 series turbo? Where do we need to place them compared to other turbo's? Why are these ones cheaper?
Thanks in advance

[klefroid]

Originally Posted by smurfbus

I'm sure he meant RON 98 equal to 93.5 US Octane as there is no ethanol 98 ( we have only E85) on pump in europe like maybe in brasil.

You're right!

[TurboKraft]

Glad the above info was helpful.

Originally Posted by klefroid

I'm a bit concerned about that oil cooling thing.
A Garrett needs a oil restrictor so that turbo has to cool down by that tiny hole?
What if that restrictor gets blocked by something in the oil line?
This would mean that the turbo get's seriously damaged?

Ahh, the old scare about oil and cooling...

3LDZ and K-series turbochargers have a lot less oil flow through them than comparably sized journal bearing turbochargers, ex. T3 and T4. Should we worry about the longevity of a K27 because of this? No, of course not.

Yes, the Garrett ball bearing turbochargers require a very little bit of oil flow. Shockingly little in comparison to the K-series or the full-flow T3 and T4 turbos.
All BB turbos (that I know of) use very little oil. BW EFR turbos are restricted, Turbonetics, Precision, etc.
Worrying about their oil demands is pointless.
Their reliability is proven, from street cars to LeMans, piston and rotary engines. We don't see failures related to overheating, and our summer time temperatures routinely exceed 110F (43F). Our Middle East customers don't kill them nearly as quickly as they destroyed 3K and Holset journal bearing turbochargers. We have many customers in hot equatorial regions, been using the BB turbos successfully on 911 Turbos for many, many years.


As for blocking the oil hole: restrict ANY turbocharger's oil flow more than it is designed to be limited, and you'll accelerate the turbocharger's failure. Look at a turbocharger's bearings, and you'll see the oil holes are about the size of a needle. Block one and it's usually game over for the journal bearing.
But a more important question should be: why would you have such large debris in your oil, anyway?
If you have debris large enough to block the oil restrictor, you aren't worried about the turbocharger anymore... because something that big just damaged your engine oil pump.


Concerning turbocharger cooling, that has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum. In short, hot shut-offs coke up oil and lead to the failure of any type of turbocharger, ball bearing or journal bearing. A cooling system provides almost no turbocharger cooling while the engine is running, but help prevent heat soak and coking after shut off. Air-cooled 911 Turbos don't have a cooling system. That's why the K27s used on 911 Turbos are specified with a "dry" bearing housing, not the version with a cooling jacket. Garrett was a little smarter, and doesn't cast 2 versions of every bearing housing, one with a cooling jacket and one without.


But other good turbos you can use as well:
S200 or S300 series turbochargers
Holset -- though the ones we have experience with aren't suitable for a simple 7:1 3.3L

[smurfbus]

This is the map for holset 40super that I have on my 3.3. Its actually not that bad but not optimal. On third it comes a live at 3k. I have IIRC the biggest hotside they have for T3 flange.

From 930