ARP head studs. Broken

[winders]

It’s called research, Henry. I am really good at it. When I want to find out what the best of something is, I go to the most successful people in the associated discipline and ask them. You can learn quite a bit and quite well if you pick your sources of information carefully. I have picked my sources carefully.

You can insult me all you want. All I am saying is that my research clearly indicates that the 993 TT head studs are not the crap you make them out to be. On the contrary, they work and work really well. So well that a vast majority of the top high performance engines builders use them. All of your name calling and derogatory comments doesn’t change that.....

[OSC911]

There are a number of guys here that when they post information, I listen and learn. I am fortunate enough to be a mechanic by trade but unfortunately have no real Porsche experience other than working on my own 911 and 993. I have been able to gain so much information from people like Henry, Neil, Steve.W. and William over the years that I have been able to complete some pretty complex work and major overhauls on my air cooled cars. There are other guys like Bill. V whos technical knowledge is unmatched. There are plenty of other contributors that I haven't mentioned that have no real technical background but have learnt from years of hands on experience and are willing to post their knowledge on a regular basis which assists the community greatly.

I have a real concern that the toxic point scoring and back and forth from some members will ultimately be detrimental to us all. When some of these highly experienced contributors finally say f#ck it and decide not to post anymore, we all will be the losers. Remember, these guys don't have to post. They do it because they want to help other like minded people that are passionate about the cars we love. Sure, they might get a small amount of business from the forum, but I doubt it is their bread and butter. These guys arn't getting any younger, so now is the time to take in as much technical information as they are willing to give. Sometimes it is easier to ignore a post that is obviously structured in such a way as to get a bite.

Rant finished

Cheers
Todd

[pmax]

OP's broken stud is not the all threaded version.

Just in case everyone missed this .

[winders]

I have no idea what is up with the Henry worshiping.....

There is just too much empirical evidence out there telling us that 993 Twin Turbo head studs work and work well to take what Henry has to say about them seriously. They are clearly not crap nor are they a "monstrosity" with a "marginally reduced failure rate."

Am I saying you guys should use 993 Twin Turbo head studs? No. Am I saying you should not use SuperTec head studs? No. I don't really give a rat's rear end what head studs you use. Do your own research and use whatever head studs you feel comfortable using. I am saying you should not dismiss the 993 Twin Turbo head studs just because Henry says bad things about them (that are not true).

If Henry would stop trashing the 993 Twin Turbo head studs I would stop calling him on it......

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by winders

...edit...
If Henry would stop trashing the 993 Twin Turbo head studs I would stop calling him on it......

The religion of Dilivar..... no facts mind you, just blind followers.
Listen closely to the Apostle Winders........if you speak of those things outside of his dogma, you will be silenced for your blasphemy.

Dude, give it a rest. I have and will continue to give the best information I have (based on decades of Porsche experience) so that the greatest number of people will succeed.

[Focker]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

The religion of Dilivar..... no facts mind you, just blind followers.
Listen closely to the Apostle Winders........if you speak of those things outside of his dogma, you will be silenced for your blasphemy.

Dude, give it a rest. I have and will continue to give the best information I have (based on decades of Porsche experience) so that the greatest number of people will succeed.

Curious, what type of failure do you see on 993 turbo head studs? I've heard of problems with the ARP head studs holding torque.

Full disclosure, I have the supertec studs ready to go in. I went with them based on price vs. 993 Turbo.

[winders]

Too funny. My only "dogma" here is that the 993 Twin Turbo head studs work and work well. I am not telling anyone what head studs to use or that your head studs are bad. I am not even saying that the 993 TT head studs are better or worse than yours.

If your "best information" says that 993 Twin Turbo head studs are a "monstrosity", well, your "best information" is flawed. What you are saying is that people like Dick Evelrude, William Knight, Jeff Gamroth, Steve Weiner, Peter Dawe, Kevin Roush, and Jae Lee, with a combined experience many times yours, are all somehow in the dark about how terrible these head studs are? You may honestly believe that they are bad. But, no, the evidence tells me these people are not in the dark and actually know what they are doing. They would not use flawed head studs to build $60,000+ highly stressed engines.

[Focker]

Originally Posted by winders

Too funny. My only "dogma" here is that the 993 Twin Turbo head studs work and work well. I am not telling anyone what head studs to use or that your head studs are bad. I am not even saying that the 993 TT head studs are better or worse than yours.

If your "best information" says that 993 Twin Turbo head studs are a "monstrosity", well, your "best information" is flawed. What you are saying is that people like Dick Evelrude, William Knight, Jeff Gamroth, Steve Weiner, Peter Dawe, Kevin Roush, and Jae Lee, with a combined experience many times yours, are all somehow in the dark about how terrible these head studs are? You may honestly believe that they are bad. But, no, the evidence tells me these people are not in the dark and actually know what they are doing. They would not use flawed head studs to build $60,000+ highly stressed engines.

THIS - If they aren't aesthetically pleasing, that's one thing, but to call them out as monstrosity and that Henry is somehow light years ahead of the chisel and stone of all the other builders is a bit much.

I don't know Scott at all, but I suspect that he's a relatively educated guy. Has he ever built an engine? NO. But if he's like me, when people speak in absolutes, that perks our ears up.

I'm curious, what do the Singer builds use in their engines?

[Henry Schmidt]

For all you snowflakes going appoplexit over a noun, please read the definition and answer the question.



Please list the design parameters where all-thread is called out as the desired fastener for a high performance application. If you can't find any, an all-thread head stud just might qualify as a freak or monstrosity.
Get over it.

[winders]

Come on, Henry. You know you used the noun "monstrosity" along with the text "marginally reduced failure rate" to disparage the 993 Twin Turbo head studs. Don't try to tell us you used the word with dispassion.

This post explains why the 993 Twin Turbo head studs have a fully threaded design:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/11245580-post1.html

Here is the important text:

"Rolling the thread on the surface crushes all the exposed grain boundaries closed, which prevents salt from getting into the grain structure and corroding the alloy.

This has proven to be outstandingly successful. Now you can have the benefit of low cylinder distortion, and reliability, even at high power levels."

As you can see, there is a method to Porsche's madness. Rolling the thread on the entire stud has a critical purpose as described in the quoted text above. So, if you want to use Dilivar head stud, here is your "design parameter where all-thread is called out as the desired fastener for a high performance application".

[Focker]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

For all you snowflakes going appoplexit over a noun, please read the definition and answer the question.



Please list the design parameters where all-thread is called out as the desired fastener for a high performance application. If you can't find any, an all-thread head stud just might qualify as a freak or monstrosity.
Get over it.

Well, Porsche specified an all thread fastener in their high performance turbo application. I would venture a guess that with the number of engines originally built by Porsche, plus the number of rebuilds using 993 all threads, that the supertech head studs, being cutting edge and new technology are in fact the Monstrosity.

I'm not a marketing whizz, but I would suggest that you don't market your head studs as a monstrosity.

My $0.02 but you may find the less you speak in absolutes, the less nerds like myself will get in your kitchen. Maybe you like the drama? I don't know, but if instead of saying the stud was a monstrosity and making wild claims about failure, you could say - "I know other builders use the 993 Turbo studs, but in my experience, I've seen too many Dilavar studs fail and I'm not willing to risk my reputation on another dilavar stud. we've had excellent results with the Supertech studs and they have the benefit of being more cost effective"

[RDM]

Originally Posted by Focker

... you could say - "I know other builders use the 993 Turbo studs, but in my experience, I've seen too many Dilavar studs fail and I'm not willing to risk my reputation on another dilavar stud. we've had excellent results with the Supertech studs and they have the benefit of being more cost effective"

I wasn't gonna, I wasn't gonna, I... am gonna.

"If only Henry would talk like I think he should talk, then he would talk this way and I would be happier."

Great. But he's Henry and he talks the way Henry talks. Weigh it, consider it, discount it if you wish. Same for Winders. But leave people to be who they are.

Winders, if you've made your point (and you have, repeatedly), please move on and leave it alone. Other people will agree or they won't agree, and you're not going to make them do either. So just stop. Please.

[winders]

Originally Posted by RDM

Winders, if you've made your point (and you have, repeatedly), please move on and leave it alone. Other people will agree or they won't agree, and you're not going to make them do either. So just stop. Please.

Hey, if Henry gets on here and says "Hey, use my SuperTec studs because Porsche's Dilivar options are horrible", I am going to say something because he is spreading absolutely false information. You want this to stop? Get Henry to stop spreading false information!

[jess p]

Originally Posted by winders

I have no idea what is up with the Henry worshiping.....

There is just too much empirical evidence out there telling us that 993 Twin Turbo head studs work and work well to take what Henry has to say about them seriously. They are clearly not crap nor are they a "monstrosity" with a "marginally reduced failure rate."

Am I saying you guys should use 993 Twin Turbo head studs? No. Am I saying you should not use SuperTec head studs? No. I don't really give a rat's rear end what head studs you use. Do your own research and use whatever head studs you feel comfortable using. I am saying you should not dismiss the 993 Twin Turbo head studs just because Henry says bad things about them (that are not true).

If Henry would stop trashing the 993 Twin Turbo head studs I would stop calling him on it......

Henry gets mad when he gets challenged and then wants to spank you.

[jess p]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

For all you snowflakes going appoplexit over a noun, please read the definition and answer the question.



Please list the design parameters where all-thread is called out as the desired fastener for a high performance application. If you can't find any, an all-thread head stud just might qualify as a freak or monstrosity.
Get over it.

So I guess now you are an English teacher.

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by winders

Hey, if Henry gets on here and says "Hey, use my SuperTec studs because Porsche's Dilivar options are horrible", I am going to say something because he is spreading absolutely false information. You want this to stop? Get Henry to stop spreading false information!

You always do that. You make a straw man argument to make your point.
I defy you to quote one post on this thread where I say "Hey, use my SuperTec studs because Porsche's Dilivar options are horrible"

You keep posting that people say things that aren't true and when you're called on it, you post "but that's what you meant".

[Focker]

Originally Posted by RDM

I wasn't gonna, I wasn't gonna, I... am gonna.

"If only Henry would talk like I think he should talk, then he would talk this way and I would be happier."

Great. But he's Henry and he talks the way Henry talks. Weigh it, consider it, discount it if you wish. Same for Winders. But leave people to be who they are.

Winders, if you've made your point (and you have, repeatedly), please move on and leave it alone. Other people will agree or they won't agree, and you're not going to make them do either. So just stop. Please.

Fair enough.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by winders

Too funny. My only "dogma" here is that the 993 Twin Turbo head studs work and work well. I am not telling anyone what head studs to use or that your head studs are bad. I am not even saying that the 993 TT head studs are better or worse than yours.

If your "best information" says that 993 Twin Turbo head studs are a "monstrosity", well, your "best information" is flawed. What you are saying is that people like Dick Evelrude, William Knight, Jeff Gamroth, Steve Weiner, Peter Dawe, Kevin Roush, and Jae Lee, with a combined experience many times yours, are all somehow in the dark about how terrible these head studs are? You may honestly believe that they are bad. But, no, the evidence tells me these people are not in the dark and actually know what they are doing. They would not use flawed head studs to build $60,000+ highly stressed engines.

Answering the "Which stud is the best ?" question is not possible.

However, answering "What head studs are used by which professional engine builders ?" is.

Let's hear them and someone can compile a table and see which make wins by that measure ...

Sounds like a simple enough exercise to me.

[mepstein]

I have a feeling that honing in on one part used in an engine build takes it out of context. A builder has to be comfortable with the parts they use and different build techniques and results may lead to different part preferences.
I have researched the heck out of things but that in no way makes me an expert on them. I wish it did but that's just not the way it works.