Thread closed by moderator ????
 

What a joke, that thread got closed? https://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/1087886-arp-head-studs-broken.html

Yes, there was a wee bit of a bun fight going on, but there was plenty of good discussion. Sadly, the products in question were are available for sale by the host of this forum. Great way to loose sales....

Yes, a couple of posters had strong opinions, one with "experience" and one with "research"

If that thread got closed, please, close every thread where there are differing opinions...

Does SW rub people the wrong way often from time to time? YES! But he is passionate, does his homework, so love him or hate him, he still has posts that are worth reading and offer value to the subject.

Does the head stud manufacturer rub people the wrong way from time to time? YES? But he has massive experience in the field and contributes to many topics with valuable experience.

Who gives a $hit if there are differing opinions and some interpersonal conflict??? Ever been in a group of people where everyone thought the same, believed the same and behaved the same?? Pretty boring uninformed group of people. Right??

Heck, I have had differing opinion with people on this forum. But most times, at the end of the day, we respect each other's opinions and positions. And even if we don't, who cares? We don't all have to be best friends...

Shame on the moderator who closed the thread...

When it gets to the stage that the mods step in and close a thread maybe it’s time for some people step back , take a deep breath , and ponder wether they’re spending to much time on the internet hoping to prove somebody wrong when they could maybe get out more and be the person they should be rather than the internet persona they are creating ...
Having a bit of banter is fine .
Debating experience or engineering is fine .
But certain people are getting a little tedious and ridiculous , and ultimately ruining it for the rest of us .


Shame on the person that caused the moderator to close the thread ...

Ian,

fair enough.

We can each chose to ignore certain posters/members.

Is what it is.

Strange, I can see who the current forum moderators are, I thought we used to be able to see who they were. Am I missing it??

Does the identity of the moderator that closed it really matter ?
It seems a little like blaming the sherif for breaking up the 2 drunks fighting in a family restaurant...

LOL, no not at all. Just interested in the thought process. I am an inquisitive guy....

Following


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I just hope the OP, blucille, gets his head stud situation addressed to his satisfaction.

The OP, blucille asked if ARP head studs broke. Then was informed positively by the 5th post that what he was dealing with was a broken Dilivar stud. At that point his question was answered. The rest was just noise.

I do tend to agree with Henry. I even commented as such. As shame I couldn’t change the name of the thread because I mean no ill will towards ARP - in fact, the previous owner of the car is still telling me he’s 110% sure he bought the head studs from ARP ...hmm. I’m hoping his ‘best in denver” engine builder has a better memory.

After the first round of replied, the thread served its use to me. Everything that followed just muddied the waters. Now it’s up to me to choose who I want to buy head studs from.

I also agree that a free for all discussion is not a problem. In this case though it devolved into a little name calling. I believe the term "snowflake" was used. That's not a good thing. Probably a little questionable ethically to use the forums to either promote your own product or bash your competitors.

Glad to hear. :cool:

Title should have been corrected at the same time since it wasn’t ARP.

Actually the moderator did their job. It's right in the user agreement here that personal attacks are not allowed and grounds for temporary or even permanent bans. When Scott and Henry took to calling each other stupid over and over again it was over. The moderator could have given them both timeouts. Instead they locked the thread and attempted to diffuse the situation. People can disagree without being disagreeable.

Matt, while I agree with you on most of that, and we are friends. A moderators job is to moderate. No where did I see a post from a moderator telling those in question to settle down. Also, and I suspect I am 100% correct here, the moderator did not reach out to the parties involved in the bun fight to get them to focus on content and forget the personalities.

That is the definition of "moderator". Moderate the discussion. Don't be afraid to step in and control the tone, in fact, that is the role of the moderator. Moderate the tone of a thread.

In any dispute, when moderation does not work, then we are forced to deal with judgement. In this case, it went straight to judgement.

Lets be honest here. The only reason a thread gets closed is because someone gut but hurt, made a complaint. I am sure in many cases that complaint was justified, and that may be the case here. But, if you are a "moderator" your job is to moderate. Closing a thread is a last resort, not a first course of action.


The only reason I started this thread was because I had typed a rather lengthy post to describe our experiences building countless aircooled engines. Sharing our experience with the group so we call can have another data point. Then when I hit the "post reply" button, I was alerted that the thread was closed.

Not even close to good "moderation" at all.

I'll keep our years of experience to ourselves now. I will continue to read what others post in an attempt to continually learn. We will always be available through email and PM to help where we can.

Cheers

I’ll agree with you that this place doesn’t have any active moderation these days. If it was caught early, the thread could have been saved. But two pages of slap fighting and whet can you do? You shoot it in the head and put it down like a crippled horse. Sometimes it all you can do.

Back in the hey day of web forums I moderated a couple forums. It’s hard work to be a moderator. And thankless work. It’s like retail customers, only one in ten says thank you publicly, but ten in ten who have even the slightest issue slams you to the world.

Pelican sold. It’s not Wayne’s house anymore. The moderators aren’t present in the way they used to be. It’s a ghost ship of sorts. My point is don’t kill the messenger. Whomever killed that thread was doing triage when surgery was due. Amputation was the logical option.

Matt,

Perfect response and great analogies.

Yes, I know now it is less of a "community" and more of a commercial venue.

By the way, will be ordering more parts in the next few days. Thank you for all of your contributions to the boards here.

Cheers

I would have to question the "closing" of the thread as well.
Not from an authority stand point but from a free expression stand point.
The moderator absolutely has the authority to exercise discretion.
That said:
This is an automotive forum where men (an occasionally women) come to express their passion for hot chicks, horse power and the smell of race fuel in the morning (to appropriate a phrase: "smells like victory').
It's just Ford vs Chevy, Porsche vs Ferrari angst.
I made a product review based on personal experience and Winders took exception to that review. What ensued was little childish but it certainly didn't violate the rules of decorum based on the nature of car forums.
Scott was pretty careful to avoid personal attacks and although I shouldn't have said "he didn't know anything" I would ague that it was hardly too harsh for the audience.

As to the ethics behinds the promotion of a product: I build Porsche engines and on the Porsche forum where people seek advice, I state what I use to get the best results. If that means I mention my products, I hardly see how that is unethical.

I also share the best way to remove valve guides, our most successful sealing techniques and why you should use wide idler arms. Should I avoid those topics because I make a sealing kit, updated idler arms or offer head work?

Many professionals don't share the education, techniques, suggestions and secrets that took them years to acquire. Thank you to the ones on this site that do.
I think it serves a great purpose for the guys who make parts to explain why they believe they should be purchased and used. We are all adults and can decide if we want to purchase. Some of our boutique builders sell really cool stuff but if they don't get a chance to talk about it, we will never know it exists.

Gang, I closed the thread. The original query had been answered and it was turning into a slugfest.

I completely agree with this. Henry, and a number of other people on this forum, are generous with their knowledge, and a lot of that knowledge is valuable intellectual property that they give us for free. If this forum was a bunch of amateurs talking about engine building, it would be useless. Supertec makes head studs and I don't see any problem with Henry posting that he uses his own head studs in his builds because he thinks they are superior. Obviously everyone is free to do their own research and make their own choices about what components to buy.

Bingo

A slugfest where not a single punch was landed. Speech is not violence.
When I grew up, the phase "sticks and stones" was a widely accepted concept.
As the target of some of the speech, I must say that I was not offended in the least.
I was not triggered to respond. I respond because I have something to offer and I enjoy the give and take.
Those who don't enjoy it can simply look away.

I totally agree

Black 993, your are correct for us to be lucky to have knowledgeable people to help spread this knowledge and give up precious secrets.

I don't have a problem with Henry suggesting people use his head studs. I am sure they are a fine product that works well. What I have a problem with is Henry trashing another manufacturer's head studs that are known to work quite well and are certainly the more common choice of renowned performance engine builders in this country and probably abroad as well. That should not be allowed.

Most people that frequent this sub-forum research their product options here. You guys treat Henry as if he were some kind of deity. So, he should be held to a higher standard and not be allowed to mislead people here...and he is misleading people if he says the Porsche 993 Twin Turbo head studs do not work well.

Henry is certainly not a deity -- I think they got some things right in the Ten Commandments and idol worship remains a no-no in my book. So far as I can see from the closed thread, all he said was this:

You are free to agree or disagree. The man was sharing his opinion and it's completely legitimate for you or anyone else to ignore him or provide different information or whatever you like. But we're definitely not going to start policing people's opinions about head studs here.

I will make it a point to disagree with him then.

It's one thing for someone to offer up his opinion and quite another for a Pelican Parts vendor to push his product on Pelican Parts while misleading people about the viability of another company's product. I am surprised you don't see the issue there.....

Closed in 3.....2......1......

I don't see the issue because I don't see the situation that way. I don't see any conspiracy at all in fact. I saw someone offering an opinion about head studs. I have a great deal of confidence in the intelligence, resourcefulness, and judgment of the members of this forum to make good decisions for themselves about head studs and a great many other things as well. I don't like infantilizing people or protecting them from discussion and debate. We're grown men here, and most of us have built our own engines. Keep the faith. We're going to be okay.

Obsession...........
 

Scott,

You could be right but your disagreement with someone else is consuming you. I think you are trying so hard to convince people that he is wrong and it is obvious now it’s becoming your obsession. Life is too short. Take a deep breathe and move on. You are intelligent and smart and should know better to put yourself in this kind of situation.

Tony

That’s the problem today, everywhere is treated like a family restaurant.

In the religion of “Dilivar” like many other faith-based belief systems, suppression of the perceived “evil”, (in this case science) is fundamental.
The true believer must testify to the absolute validity of the dogma. Ostracizing, isolating, and demonizing the non-believer is part and parcel to this fixation. Virtue signaling and crusading for the “truth” is common among those with no life beyond “Dilivarism”.

My POV is the popular misconception (religion) that all Dilavar is verbotten. On the contrary, all is not. Moreso with earlier versions. However, if there are breakage/failure issues with 993 twin turbo Dilavar studs, I've yet to read about them. Perhaps that issue is being suppressed? Dunno. FWIW.

If Supertec head studs are at least equivalent to the 993 studs, but cost less, I'd head that way unless I'm a stickler for factory only parts.

Sherwood

This post has information on why Dilivar 993 Twin Turbo head studs may be better than steel:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/11245580-post1.html

That thread is completely theoretical and dangerously close to mental masturbation. It’s easy to postulate the scenario, it’s another to actually quantify it. With close to 50 years of air cooled Porsche engines running around with a variety of head studs, you would think that there would be consensus. If bore distortion was a problem we would have seen it on a blow-by meter on the dyno. Since we do not, the theory is moot. While 993 Dilivar can do the job, Henry’s studs are a great alternative and fit nicely between steel and Dilivar as far as expansion rate.... if you feel that it’s a factor in your decision. Run what you feel like using,

So, you claim to be an engine builder and you don't believe bore distortion exists because you can't measure it with a BLOWBY METER?! Holey Snikes!

What if.....
We install sensors inside a bare cylinder bolted onto a fixture, then test various stud materials and how they and the cylinder distort and change dimensions under stress, etc. while cycling the top, middle and bottom cylinder sections at typical operating temperatures?

Sounds like such a test has been performed back in the early days of automotive engineering.

I recall a test on air-cooled motorcycle cylinders that showed the upper cylinder ID increasing relative to the cooler lower section of the cylinder. Thus, so called taper boring was introduced to compensate for heat expansion and to arrive at an evenly round bore at operating temperature.

S

Where do I say it doesn’t exist?

And who are you? We as engine builders have multiple builds spanding decades.... of empirical data. Post yours squirrel.

Get specific, tell us what you have found.

Do you really want to go there? Because I can gurantee that there are many more years of experience out there in the people using 993 Twin Turbo Dilivar head studs than there are in the people using Supertec head studs. The empirical data is on the 993 Twin Turbo Dilivar head studs' side!!!!

So hand me empirical data stating that you need it Scott. I can provide real data because I have done the tests. It’s the real life testing that follows concern for such things.Making generic arguments based on theory is a waste of time and results layman regurgitating conjecture.

What’s the max deviation of acceptable ovality from Mahle? It’s more than you would expect and much more than I like to run.

I just did a leak down on a 98mm 3.2SS both at room temp and 5 min after shut down. The results were the same @ less than 1%. That was with stock steel head studs. Dyno data backs up this test.