Pelican Parts Forums

Pelican Parts Forums (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/index.php)
-   911 Engine Rebuilding Forum (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/forumdisplay.php?f=257)
-   -   Alusil cylinders options (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=1107131)

Nditiz1 11-20-2021 09:47 AM
Alusil cylinders options
 
Unknown mileage 83 3.0 engine. In the middle of a tear down. If the internals look ok I will just reseal. I'll ask for advice on what the condition of the components look like when I get there. It looks like my cylinders are Alusil. They have 10 fins, no MAHLE marking, and the only part that is magentic as at the top where it meets the head. Anyway, can I just re-ring, clean the cylinders with a red scuff pad and soapy water, and be on my way? OR do I need to get them re-sleeved? Who does this kind of work? This engine rebuild is on a tight budget so if I can get by with just new rings I will. Which rings should I get?

Thanks brain trust.

targa72e 11-20-2021 10:33 AM
Alusil cylinder are generally not considered good candidates for re-ringing (search this forum for discussions). Keep the Piston and cylinders matched. Measure all the critical dimensions: bore ovality, Piston to cylinder clearance, ring groove side clearance and ring gap. If all of these are in spec then clean and re-use. If out of spec time for new parts.

john

Tom_in_NH 11-20-2021 10:53 AM
There's an enormous thread regarding preparation and re-ring of Alusil cylinders. According to that thread, there has been some success simply cleaning with soap and water and re-ring with cast iron rings.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/137346-re-ring-alusils-31.html

Nditiz1 11-20-2021 12:02 PM
Tom thanks, I'll read up on it.

Richey 11-20-2021 04:42 PM
I think the answer is simple , if you need new rings you need new pistons and cylinders , otherwise reuse as is .

timmy2 11-20-2021 07:38 PM
Successfully Re-ringed my Alusils 10 years ago with whatever Goetz rings Pelican sent me.
Grey Scotchbrite (red seemed too aggressive) and clean engine oil is what I used. Everything was still in spec at 82,000 miles on the engine.
I read all the doom and gloom threads and all the ones with “it worked for me”.
I figured with everything in spec I had better than a 50/50 chance they would seat.

mikedsilva 11-21-2021 07:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy2 (Post 11525007)
Successfully Re-ringed my Alusils 10 years ago with whatever Goetz rings Pelican sent me.
Grey Scotchbrite (red seemed too aggressive) and clean engine oil is what I used. Everything was still in spec at 82,000 miles on the engine.
I read all the doom and gloom threads and all the ones with “it worked for me”.
I figured with everything in spec I had better than a 50/50 chance they would seat.
Good to see a postitive outcome. I've never tried to re-use them due to all the warnings on this site. When I discussed with a friend who runs a 944 turbo, he didn't believe me that 911 people say that Alusil cannot be re-used ; afterall, all the 944 and 928 etc are all Alusil blocks and they often re-ring etc.

I'm not giving an opinion on what is right or wrong, but I look forward to seeing the outcome of this one.

Walt Fricke 11-21-2021 04:42 PM
If you find you need new pistons (likely wear being ring grooves, I think, not so much the skirts?), now might be the time to source good used Mahle's (discarded by guys who built motors with wider pistons), if not new aftermarket pistons, and have your cylinders Nikasiled. You could sleeve these, but I think Nikasiling is less expensive. The process involves plating the cylinder bore, then machining it down to spec, so the underlying condition of the Alusil bore doesn't much matter.

Do you, by any chance, have leakdown numbers from before it was torn down? In addition to an overall percentage, the leakdown can point to where the leak or leaks are: intake valve, exhaust, or rings - with the slight possibility of head to cylinder seal. If the leakage was low (say under 10%), and especially if mostly from valves (which can be reground, along with the seats), maybe just reuse rings and everything else in that department?

Sure, the best thing is a full rebuild, leaving you with a basically new motor, but you have a budget. So you do a 50,000 mile fix, rather than a 200,000 mile fix? If you do your own wrenching, that tends to look better than if you figure in shop labor to do everything.

Nditiz1 11-21-2021 05:02 PM
Unfortunately I have no leak down numbers except for a cold cylinder #1 which was reading 10% loss. I went to check 6 and noticed a large leak, but then also noticed the broken head studs. At this point I inspected the rear and found 5 total broke so a rebuild was in order.

Depending on the cost to nikasil the cylinders it might be worth it just to go that route. I'll be possibly buying new rings anyway right? I'll get some measurements of the cylinders, rings pistons.

AFB24911S 11-21-2021 05:08 PM
If you get a chance to check on it, I'd love to know what the cost to nikasil the cylinders might be.

boyt911sc 11-21-2021 09:12 PM
My personal experience........
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy2 (Post 11525007)
Successfully Re-ringed my Alusils 10 years ago with whatever Goetz rings Pelican sent me.
Grey Scotchbrite (red seemed too aggressive) and clean engine oil is what I used. Everything was still in spec at 82,000 miles on the engine.
I read all the doom and gloom threads and all the ones with “it worked for me”.
I figured with everything in spec I had better than a 50/50 chance they would seat.

Dennis,

In the early 90’s before the advent of Pelicanparts Forum, I rebuilt my ‘78 SC and re-ringed the alusil cylinders using the Goetz rings from the Victor Renz rebuilt kit. I have 30K plus track miles as of today and still running like new.

And subsequently rebuilt more than a dozen SC motors with re-ringed alusil cylinders with no problem. The car owners have not reported or found any problem after many years of driving and recently delivered another one last August 2021. I have yet to see a motor that failed due to new rings on old alusil cylinders. I am not alone, there are many others that have done it successfully.

Tony

targa72e 11-21-2021 10:19 PM
You can find cost for nikasil plating a cylinder on the Millennium technology or US chrome site. These are the primary providers of this service in US. Can also have them bored oversize if sourcing new pistons.

john

Nditiz1 11-22-2021 03:52 AM
Tony - thanks for chiming in. Since I'll be buying a rebuild kit and they come in it then I guess I have my answer on that.

targa72e - Thanks! If for some reason I need to go the plating route I now have their contact info.

ahh911 11-22-2021 07:08 AM
Tony,
I admire your guts to post your experience. It helps us all to keep these things going. I didn't have the guts to re-ring my alusil. I need a hobby anyhow, but I think it turned out okay. I would have liked new rings, but I read several owners had noticed that the originals were better than the their replacements in some way or other I forget, so just left them in.
Phil

boyt911sc 11-22-2021 03:09 PM
You can not survive by guts alone........
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahh911 (Post 11525936)
Tony,
I admire your guts to post your experience. It helps us all to keep these things going. I didn't have the guts to re-ring my alusil. I need a hobby anyhow, but I think it turned out okay. I would have liked new rings, but I read several owners had noticed that the originals were better than the their replacements in some way or other I forget, so just left them in.
Phil

Phil,

You can not survive in this business if you rely on guts alone. Nor rely on luck. You need to have plenty of test results and evaluate them. If you could replicate data or test results, you could arrive to a reliable conclusion. Not because it worked the first time, it would work all the time. There are several critical variables you have to consider in your work or test.

I have rebuilt several motors and ran them in the track. The very first time, I was not even sure if they would survive the brutal test run. As time went by, I feel confident that re-ringing alusil cylinders in good condition is an option people could take. And I’ve done it multiple times and found no adverse effect. And I had rebuilt my first motor 25 years ago and few more projects followed.

Tony

Jeff Alton 01-15-2022 07:18 PM
We have never had an issue re-ringing Alusil cylinders. Prep them properly and you will be fine. Of course this assumes that the piston and cylinder measure in spec...

Cheers

gled49 01-18-2022 11:55 AM
For me successful re-ring with alusil was using only Porsche rings called out by them. FWIW

faapgar 01-18-2022 01:35 PM
reringing Alusil
 
I have done many motors with new rings in Alusil cylinders.Never had a problem.I have found much less wear with Alusil in higher mileage motors than Nicasil.Last month I took apart an SC with 91,000 miles with broken studs.Measured the ring gaps and they were 0.20mm.New spec is 0.15mm or 0.006 thousandths.Lack of knowledge breeds fear.944 & 928 motors a great example of the Alusil design.Do a RA check on Alusil and that will give you a clue.Less drag from less fricition.Oh no not more power and lower oil temp!Say it is not so!Ciao Fred

roy gray 01-23-2022 10:33 AM
Hello,is this thing on?EBS.Send your cylinders to them.Like Walt said,the condition or model of cylinder does not matter,because they will turn them into "Nickies".Their fee for this is nominal,The last time I did it was around $800 for the cylinder repair/plating.EBS will also supply new pistons to match your cylinders .You can choose displacement(within reason), and compression ratio.They have most popular sizes on shelf.I think the pistons were about $100 dollars each,with rings and pins.

Dpmulvan 01-24-2022 04:44 AM
I believe replating is around $250 per cylinder now.

garagejdm 01-24-2022 06:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boyt911sc (Post 11526454)
Phil,

I feel confident that re-ringing alusil cylinders in good condition is an option people could take. And I’ve done it multiple times and found no adverse effect. And I had rebuilt my first motor 25 years ago and few more projects followed.

Tony
Planning on re-ringing my 83 SC Alu-sil cylinders. They are in spec per all the measurements and the only real reason for me to re-ring is the motor came to me disassembled (basketcase). I'm trying to figure out which rings to use at this point though as I see a lot of conflicting information. Goetz rings are now listed to fit Nickasil OR Alusil cylinders although PCNA's catalog shows that the rings for the Schmidt (Alusil) cylinders are discontinued and do not supercede.

Also Tony I was trying to contact you per a suggestion from another user to see about having you rebuild my WUR/fuel head but for some reason the PM function, etc is not working.

KTL 01-26-2022 02:25 PM
FYI to those planning to re-plate Nikasil cylinders (edit) and possibly plate Alusil cylinders (edit). I received this email back in May 2021 from US Chrome:

A Message To Our Dealers

During the past year, we have received an overwhelming amount of work from our dealer network and retail community. With increased demand and a shortened supply of materials and resources due to the pandemic, our turn times have been drastically affected. We understand what that means to our dealers and these events have shown us that to be able to support you, we need to make a change.

For the foreseeable future, we are suspending all direct to consumer (retail) cylinder repair services. This means that we want our retail community to work directly with their local dealer. Our hope is that this will allow us to refocus on our turn time and also drive more business through your doors, to meet new faces, and build relationships.

You will have the option to assist these customers with sending in their cylinder to U.S. Chrome for plating services or in finding a suitable replacement option. We are currently only accepting jobs from dealers who are registered in our system. If you need to register, please visit our website to fill out our dealer application form.

We have also made changes to the services we will be offering going forward. We will no longer be welding cylinders in our repair process. We recommend the use of the several specialty shops that can sculpt and complete this type of repair. If you would like to take on the repair project, we now have a ‘Strip & Return Only’ option. We have also stopped offering our rush service as that would make those who are waiting, wait even longer.

We understand that behind every cylinder is someone who just wants to smile and have fun. These are the sports that we enjoy too, they are our passion, and while making these adjustments may be disappointing for some, it is the move we need to make to assist our dealers. Thank you again for working with us.


Looks like that dealer-only approach remains for 2022. Their pricing schedule on the website says so

https://www.usnicom.com/plating/pricing

And always make sure you know what the proper finished surface roughness must be and confirm the dealer relays it. Don't assume the plating vendor will know.

ahh911 01-26-2022 03:57 PM
garagejdm,

At first reading Bentley repair, quote "if equipped with Alusil pistons and cylinders, replace with Nikasil" and after counting the number of fins etc.., darn I have Alusil. Now I'm thinking I was lucky to have the Alusil, supposedly less wear longer lasting. If there was a problem, new cylinders and pistons, I'd skip re-plating, unless economy was an issue, I haven't looked lately, but I remember last year the euro spec cylinders and pistons were something like 4k a set, not bad, the u.s. version were getting up there $6k, but I wonder how many have worn out alusils.

Phil

Dpmulvan 01-27-2022 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTL (Post 11589510)
FYI to those planning to re-plate Nikasil cylinders (edit) and possibly plate Alusil cylinders (edit). I received this email back in May 2021 from US Chrome:

A Message To Our Dealers

During the past year, we have received an overwhelming amount of work from our dealer network and retail community. With increased demand and a shortened supply of materials and resources due to the pandemic, our turn times have been drastically affected. We understand what that means to our dealers and these events have shown us that to be able to support you, we need to make a change.

For the foreseeable future, we are suspending all direct to consumer (retail) cylinder repair services. This means that we want our retail community to work directly with their local dealer. Our hope is that this will allow us to refocus on our turn time and also drive more business through your doors, to meet new faces, and build relationships.

You will have the option to assist these customers with sending in their cylinder to U.S. Chrome for plating services or in finding a suitable replacement option. We are currently only accepting jobs from dealers who are registered in our system. If you need to register, please visit our website to fill out our dealer application form.

We have also made changes to the services we will be offering going forward. We will no longer be welding cylinders in our repair process. We recommend the use of the several specialty shops that can sculpt and complete this type of repair. If you would like to take on the repair project, we now have a ‘Strip & Return Only’ option. We have also stopped offering our rush service as that would make those who are waiting, wait even longer.

We understand that behind every cylinder is someone who just wants to smile and have fun. These are the sports that we enjoy too, they are our passion, and while making these adjustments may be disappointing for some, it is the move we need to make to assist our dealers. Thank you again for working with us.


Looks like that dealer-only approach remains for 2022. Their pricing schedule on the website says so

https://www.usnicom.com/plating/pricing

And always make sure you know what the proper finished surface roughness must be and confirm the dealer relays it. Don't assume the plating vendor will know.
I’m sure they got sick of dealing with Joe public, not worth the hassle trying to accommodate all the stupid people in this world who want Chinese pricing, Amazon shipping and Rolex quality.

I do a lot of plating and have some nikasil recipes been trying to talk myself out of doing it. Green silicon carbide in 3 micron is not too cheap and some of the other ingredients are just a little nasty to have around the house. Have not priced a diamond hone either but I’m sure sticker shock would be in order. But it would be nice to be able to plate your own cylinders.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:53 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2025 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website


DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.