motor meister motor advise

[Jerry1]

Thanks for the offer I will keep it in mine.

[sgoldberg]

With regards to experience with MM, I recently had an issue with my motor on a 964 , so I call MM and spoke with Roy. He sent out a DVD and full guide to engine rebuilds which seemed nice on the surface. But I continued to ask questions about the rebuild process some of the answers seemed to change after a few minutes. The shop seems very hard-core sales - always pushing.

I recieve at least a couple of calls a week from the shop asking when I will be sending in my car for the 4.0 stroker rebuild at cost of 12k. Seems very cheap for the amount of parts and labor that would be needed to make such an engine.

From what I've read and heard the experinces most people have with MM is not very good. I would like to hear at least one good story but I can't seem to find one.

[fastfredracing]

I think it is funny, I am always seeing 911's for sale on e bay with that famous red fan, and a motor rebuilt by motor meister. I imagine that some people get so disgusted, that they just bail out, and dump their car

[Flat Six, Inc.]

I'm re-doing a MM 3.0L that cost $7500 and was smoking like crazy........

I loose a lot of rebuilds because I quote real numbers......oh well I've got plenty to do........

[Jerry1]

I just wanted to update everyone on my status with motor mister I got all but 100.00 dollar back of my deposit. I'm ok with that. I told a little white lie I hope God will forgives me. I have come in contact with a gental man who has a rebuildable 2.0 for very reasonable. I think I can do this with your help. Thanks to everyone for your input I don't like making mistakes and I gladly learn from other experence.
Jerry

[sww914]

That's the best $100.00 you ever lost.

[degreeoff1]

Damn I just had my home brew rebuild fan powder coated RED I hope that doesnt mean it'll be mistaken for a MM rebuild!!

[Grady Clay]

Jerry,

Please heed the above advice. A through search should warn you.

A clue with the above specs should also be an indication. A 2.0 aluminum case doesn’t need ‘case savers’. The addition of these indicates to me the proposed case is probably a 2.0/2.2 magnesium case. Yes, those do need case savers – and usually other (expensive) repairs.

I’m sure we could spec the ideal ‘Mickey Mouse’ (no disrespect to the little rodent) junk-but-runs-sorta engine: A corroded and damaged (epoxy repair) 2.0 mag case. An out-of-spec 3rd-under ‘T’ crank with mismatched 2.0 rods. A damaged (trash from previous blow-up) and worn out oil pump. I hate to think what might lurk in the ‘cleaned’ oil cooler. Damaged, worn out and incorrect size jackshaft. Old chains, sprockets, ramps and non-bushed idler arms. The support pins falling out of the chain housings. Some worn out 2.7 CIS cams and equally old rockers. The rocker shafts in place with RTV. Worn out iron cylinders with various pistons and used rings. Various heads with an assortment of valves and a hint of valve guides. Cracked intake manifolds (more RTV) and worn out ‘trick racing’ Zenith carburetors. Worn Marelli distributor, used points, cap, wires, plug connectors and sparkplugs. ‘Race headers’ (rusted out heat exchangers with the shrouds removed) and some ‘trick’ pretense of a muffler. A ‘serviced’ flywheel with a ‘good’ used VW clutch.

I could go on but I might lose my breakfast.



Your best bet (in terms of personal satisfaction and your economic well being) probably is to buy a known good running complete core engine and rebuild it yourself. This forum can provide you all the help and advice you need.

A successful (but more expensive) choice is to buy a fresh (and built to your specs) complete engine from a reputable builder. There are many. I would choose one with an engine dyno so your engine can be run-in and serviced prior to shipment.

The first steps will be to search the forums, read Bruce Anderson’s and Wayne Dempsey’s engine books and ask lots of questions. You will need to decide on what vintage engine and ‘state-of-tune’ you want (and want to afford).

I would save the VW engine and get your car restored/rehabbed/etc. using it before (and while) lighting into the 911 engine. There is a lot of time, effort and expense in getting the 912’s suspension, transmission, fuel system and all the other systems ready to accept its new engine. You need to evaluate the chassis for rust and any prior crash damage and suitability of repair.

You will need an oil sump tank and related parts (they must be compatible). Depending on your new engine, use and climate; you may need a front oil cooler from a 911SC or other. 912s have smaller (or no) sway bars and smaller torsion bars compared to the same year 911s.

There is more – MUCH MORE.

You are standing at the gate of a great ski run. You need to see if it is a ‘Green’, ‘Blue’ or a ‘Double Black Diamond’. You need to evaluate your equipment and skill level.

Best,
Grady

[gigem75]

"Worn Marelli distributor" boy that brings back memories, never could get my 59 Alfa to run right until I put the bosch distributor on it.

[Jerry1]

Thanks Grady for your input you guys are great. I hope some day I'll get to help some green horn like you have helped me. Thanks again Jerry

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Grady Clay

Jerry,

I would save the VW engine and get your car restored/rehabbed/etc. using it before (and while) lighting into the 911 engine. There is a lot of time, effort and expense in getting the 912’s suspension, transmission, fuel system and all the other systems ready to accept its new engine. You need to evaluate the chassis for rust and any prior crash damage and suitability of repair.

You will need an oil sump tank and related parts (they must be compatible). Depending on your new engine, use and climate; you may need a front oil cooler from a 911SC or other. 912s have smaller (or no) sway bars and smaller torsion bars compared to the same year 911s.

There is more – MUCH MORE.

Best,
Grady

Count on Grady to address the big picture. As I read this thread, my thoughts went immediately to the great challenge of converting a 912 over to be a 911 more than the talk of MM. I knew that MM would quickly get shot down. I just hoped that someone would step in and ALSO enlighten jerry about what a major undertaking changing over a 912 is for someone new to these cars. It requires welding, wiring and many other skills that need to be taken into account beyond much of the standard rebuilding of brakes and replacing door cards and things many home mechanics can easily do as part of a "restoration"

Jerry,
Take a close look at that "VW" engine you have there. Are you sure that it's not the original engine for your 912? I don't mean to insult you and you may know exactly what you have there. But maybe you don't. A SWB 912 with it's original engine and tranny will arguably we worth more restored than a SWB 912 converted to 911 spec. I don't know if such things matter to you but it's something to consider

My '65 912 did in fact come with a "VW" engine in it. It was a type IV engine from a 914 that was installed in one heck of a hack job of welding and wiring. It's attrocious what someone did to this little car. If it was done well, it would be one thing. Then it would be a great car to hot rod with a FAT upright fan conversion and a big bore kit and build a 2.1l or 2.2l type IV with +/-125-140chp and have the power of an early 2.0l 911 engine, but with less weight. That might be another direction for you to consider depending on exactly what engine you have there and how it was installed in your vehicle. That's where I was going with my car, but the rust mites have had their way with the car more than I am ready to deal with and I am abondoning ship on it almost immediately and looking for something with a bit less rust...

[Grady Clay]

Jerry,

Dumb ol’ me doesn’t study the whole thread before I post.

Best $100 you will ever spend.

On to important issues.

Before you do anything else, now is the time to take stock of the overall condition of the car. There are many situations where even if you got the car for free, it would not be prudent to attempt a restoration. It is not impossible to get 20X the value ‘invested’ in some projects. Now is the time to evaluate – not some time later after spending too much money.

These are expensive cars. They are even more expensive and difficult to restore than most realize. Parts availability and cost are the big issues. This is probably the reason for the VW engine – the cost to repair the 616 engine (standard 912) far exceeded the value of the car.

The critical issue is the current condition. How extensive is the rust? There usually is 10X more rust than you can see and it takes someone very familiar with the chassis to see what they are looking at. Find some local expertise.

Being expensive when new, many had crash damage repaired when lesser value cars were thrown away and sent to the crusher. You need to carefully inspect for prior crash damage and quality of the repair. Again, consult some volunteer experts.

Before spending another dime, gather information and make a plan. A good place to start are all the free parts catalogs (I think even the PET Factory catalog CD is now free). The exploded diagrams will help you see the car with ‘X-ray vision’. The prices will give you some idea of the costs involved.

Next might be using all the on-line resources. Start yourself a file system to copy pertinent information into. Saving links, images and just specific posts or threads can be invaluable. A loose-leaf binder works well for print-outs.

Thus far you haven’t spent a dime (other than the $100 and the cost of the 912). Now might be the time to start buying all the commercial books and manuals. There are a lot. It is money well spent, even if you don’t pursue your initial restoration vision.

Your greatest resource is to use the expertise available here on Pelican. Post images here and ask for advice.


As I said, this is an expensive proposition. You will find many half-finished project cars for sale. The owners didn’t realize the costs until they had already spent way too much.



Now that I have scared you to death, these projects can be GREAT FUN. Take your time. Spend your money wisely. Enjoy the process as it will take a long time. Please proceed carefully and with good knowledge.


Best,
Grady

[Matt Monson]

Grady,
You have a PM about such things. I was serious about getting rid of my '65...

[Jerry1]

I have had the car for about a year now. I have replaced the front suspention pan front latch panal floor pan is in place ready to weld up, I have done a lot of work on this car only have about 3k invested. This is the car I have always wanted. With regards to installing a 911 motor. The car did not come with the original motor It will cost almost the same to find and rebuild a 912 motor as it would a same year 911 motor. This is not a car I an going to send to a shop and wait for them to do the work I got this car to build the more rust the better bring it on. This is the most fun I have had in my life. I have always had a desire to have a porsche. I believe God will give you the desires of your heart and he did. Its a long ways from being complete I'm only 42 I have a lot of life left in these bones.
Wish me luck.
thanks Jerry

[gigem75]

may the force be with you!

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Jerry1

I have had the car for about a year now. I have replaced the front suspention pan front latch panal floor pan is in place ready to weld up, I have done a lot of work on this car only have about 3k invested. This is the car I have always wanted. With regards to installing a 911 motor. The car did not come with the original motor It will cost almost the same to find and rebuild a 912 motor as it would a same year 911 motor. This is not a car I an going to send to a shop and wait for them to do the work I got this car to build the more rust the better bring it on. This is the most fun I have had in my life. I have always had a desire to have a porsche. I believe God will give you the desires of your heart and he did. Its a long ways from being complete I'm only 42 I have a lot of life left in these bones.
Wish me luck.
thanks Jerry

What an awesome attitude. I wish you the best of luck on your mission. Given that your course seems firmly set, I would start shopping for a 2.0l 911 core and becoming a frequent flyer in the 911 rebuilding forum. Also get a copy of Wayne's book. Build your own engine and enjoy the ride...

[Grady Clay]

Jerry,

All right! Now the fun begins.

Tell us more about the 2.0 you found. What year? What type number (901/xx)? What history? What condition? What needs to be done and how?

You will need an oil tank. There are several different types. The ’72 only (ahead of the LR tire) is probably out of the question and exceedingly difficult to find. The early (’65-’71) 911 tanks are available new (I think) but are outrageously priced. Finding one used, for sale and in good condition is unlikely. The ’73 only tank will work if you can find one. The most economical choice is the ’74-’89 tank. This has the added advantage that the return fitting is 30 mm and fits the front cooler pluming from all the ’74-’89 cars. The oil filter console is integral with the tank. An additional advantage is the supply hose from the tank to the fitting on the cooler is larger and more readily available. However, this requires the ’73-’89 engine oil cooler, not an original 2.0-2.2 cooler.

The oil pipe and fitting from the case to the tank or thermostat is from ’73-’75.

You will need to run a pair of wires for the oil level sender.

A standard 2.0 125 mm clutch is appropriate.

You will need the two engine mounts and the two pieces of tin that weld in the rear corners of the engine compartment. I don’t know the availability. You may have to cut them out of a salvage 911. Grind off the 912 mounts so you can get the 911 intake valve cover off.

While a ’67 911 normally had a Bendex or Hardi electric fuel pump in the engine compartment, there is a better way. In ’69-’70 the Bosch pump was mounted on the front suspension cross member. Search Pelican on ‘circulating fuel system’.

You will need a CD ignition system. The CDI box usually mounts on or near the electric panel. That panel is common to ’65-’69. In ’67 the coil was also mounted to that panel.

You will need to extend wires for the oil temperature and pressure senders. To convert the instruments to 911, you will need to have the tach recalibrated for six cylinders (and 8000 max rpm). It is best to find 911 ‘combination instrument’ for oil temperature and pressure and the fuel & oil level gauge. It is critical to match the sending units to the instruments – there are many varieties.

Inspect the transmission mount. All 911 take one mount. Most (but not all) 912s have a different mount. You will need the 911 mount.


On to the engine.

You probably will need to make decisions about many things: displacement, compression ratio, type of P&Cs, cam profiles and more. You will find that some important parts are very difficult to source new. P&Cs and valves come to mind. Again stirring around parts among the various types can solve some. The valves for the 2.2-2.7 heads are available and inexpensive – so are the heads.

You will probably find Biral cylinders for a 2.0 very difficult to find. The ones for 2.2-2.4 are much easier. In fact (with some mod) you can even use the 90 mm Mahle Nikasil from the ’73 Carrera RS 2.7.

The ’67 911 (normal) only used the Weber 40IDA 3 C (not an IDS, IDAP or IDT although any can be made to work). After 41 years many are now seriously worn. They can be repaired but the cost can match new PMO carburetors.

I am in favor of using the original steel air filter assembly if at all possible for fire, rain and appearance. There are also some period plastic intake stacks that should be plated steel.


A lot of these decisions depend on your intensions and the engine you start with.



We should get Pelican John Cramer in this discussion. He just wrestled with many of these issues for his ’66 901/05.

Please start another thread so there is no longer any association with the initial subject of this one.

Best,
Grady

PS: Where do you live? Put that in your profile and you may find some local Pelicans to help.

[Jerry1]

I will start a new thread as so as the engine arives from the info I have its a 69 2.0 t less cylinders and carbs oil tank is included. Very excited talk soon thanks

[efhughes3]

Grady, your knowledge of these cars never ceases to amaze me.

[3.2 CAB]

Grady, pretty much amazes everyone here.