Henry,

I said that buying a blank case for a '71 911 and stamping the original engine number on it would be dishonest. Why? There is no reason to stamp the case. That could only lead to deceit.

You said that stamping a blank case with originals numbers was not dishonest. You also said that not disclosing the fact the case was not original "may" be dishonest.

Where did I distort what you wrote?

Scott

First, the reason to stamp a blank case with a number is to prevent possible impound do to lack of a serial number. In California, having a case with no number is generally construed by law enforcement as an altered case. It's not uncommon for a car (Porsche especially) to be impounded for altered numbers.
In order to prevent this false conclusion a case should be numbered. If you're going to number a case, what number would you recommend? I would recommend the number you own. Pretty simple, no deceit involved.
I rarely speak in absolutes so when I said "may" I was taking into consideration that deceit requires knowledge.
Your dad replaces the case and replace the original number. He dies leaving the car to your mom. She sells it as a matching numbers car. intent to deceive does not exist. In fact there is no intention to deceive on any level.
Perhaps you should save your self righteous blather and accusation for your ethics 101 class. The real world is not as black and white.

Damn, you left coasters sure get going. Henry, I personally thank you for taking the time to respond to my issue. One could always do as the factory and stamp a KD or AT in front of or behind he new number or some other identifier as a replacement case.
Have a great weekend and enjoy your ride.

In California, cops have shown up to car repair shops and check the VIN on the replacement parts. All parts that are stolen (VIN reported) are confiscated. Does not happen all the time, but they can do it.

For everyone reading the thread: apologize for getting upset but I struggle with the suggestion that my integrity is in question.


In the past I might have "called you out" but on the internet all I can do is "bust a Caps lock in your ass". :)

Nothing with Henry surprises me anymore. I own an original picasso and I can get a print of the same. Now I sign his name. Now I have to picasso's. Profit!

Unreal.

Since you own the original, does that give you license to sign all the copies and pass them off as original?

Imagine them showing up to a shop and finding two identically numbered cases. That would be a real head scratcher. Is it live, or is it Memorex?

Your self-perceived position over Scott does not absolve you of public scrutiny or judgement when you disclose practices that have an intention of deception or forgery. A verbal disclosure of the forgery will not make it defensible...

I suggest you do some reading big guy.

Illegal under California Law.

P218 here... https://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/veh_code.pdf

Fraudulent Acquisition or Disposition of Vehicle
Identification Number: Penalty
10752. (a) No person shall, with intent to prejudice,
damage, injure, or defraud, acquire, possess, sell, or offer for
sale any genuine or counterfeit manufacturer’s serial or
identification number from or for, or purporting to be from or
for, a vehicle or component part thereof.
(b) No person shall, with intent to prejudice, damage,
injure, or defraud, acquire, possess, sell, or offer for sale any
genuine or counterfeit serial or identification number issued
by the department, the Department of the California
Highway Patrol, or the vehicle registration and titling agency
of any foreign jurisdiction which is from or for, or purports to
be from or for, a vehicle or component part thereof.
(c) Every person convicted of a violation of subdivision (a)
or (b) shall be punished by imprisonment pursuant to
subdivision (h) of Section 1170 of the Penal Code, or in the
county jail for not less than 90 days nor more than one year,
and by a fine of not less than two hundred fifty dollars ($250)
nor more than five thousand dollars ($5,000).
Amended Sec. 602, Ch. 15, Stats. 2011. Effective July 1, 2011.
CHAPTER 3.5. MOTOR VEHICLE CHOP SHOPS
Chop Shop Ownership or Operation
10801. Any person who knowingly and intentionally
owns or operates a chop shop is guilty of a public offense and,
upon conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment
pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 of the Penal Code
for two, three, or four years, or by a fine of not more than fifty
thousand dollars ($50,000), or by both the fine and
imprisonment, or by up to one year in the county jail, or by a
fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by
both the fine and imprisonment.
Amended Sec. 603, Ch. 15, Stats. 2011. Effective July 1, 2011.
Chop Shop Activities
10802. Any person who knowingly alters, counterfeits,
defaces, destroys, disguises, falsifies, forges, obliterates, or
removes vehicle identification numbers, with the intent to
misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of
motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts, for the purpose of sale,
transfer, import, or export, is guilty of a public offense and,
upon conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment
pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 of the Penal Code
for 16 months, or two or three years, or by a fine of not more
than twenty-five thousand dollars ($25,000), or by both the
fine and imprisonment, or by up to one year in the county jail,
or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or
by both the fine and imprisonment.
Amended Sec. 604, Ch. 15, Stats. 2011. Effective July 1, 2011.

Chop Shop Activities
10802. Any person who knowingly alters, counterfeits,
defaces, destroys, disguises, falsifies, forges, obliterates, or
removes vehicle identification numbers, with the intent to
misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of
motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts, for the purpose of sale,
transfer, import, or export, is guilty of a public offense and,
upon conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment
pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 of the Penal Code
for 16 months, or two or three years, or by a fine of not more
than twenty-five thousand dollars ($25,000), or by both the
fine and imprisonment, or by up to one year in the county jail,
or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or
by both the fine and imprisonment.
Amended Sec. 604, Ch. 15, Stats. 2011. Effective July 1, 2011.
lChop Shop: Buyers and Sellers
10803. (a) Any person who buys with the intent to resell,
disposes of, sells, or transfers, more than one motor vehicle or
parts from more than one motor vehicle, with the knowledge
that the vehicle identification numbers of the motor vehicles
or motor vehicle parts have been altered, counterfeited,
defaced, destroyed, disguised, falsified, forged, obliterated, or
removed for the purpose of misrepresenting the identity or
preventing the identification of the motor vehicles or motor
vehicle parts, is guilty of a public offense and, upon
conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment pursuant to
subdivision (h) of Section 1170 of the Penal Code for two, four,
or six years, or by a fine of not more than sixty thousand
dollars ($60,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment, or by
up to one year in the county jail, or by a fine of not more than
one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and
imprisonment.
(b) Any person who possesses, for the purpose of sale,
transfer, import, or export, more than one motor vehicle or
parts from more than one motor vehicle, with the knowledge
that the vehicle identification numbers of the motor vehicles
or motor vehicle parts have been altered, counterfeited,
defaced, destroyed, disguised, falsified, forged, obliterated, or
Div. 4 —201— §10851.5
removed for the purpose of misrepresenting the identity or
preventing the identification of the motor vehicles or motor
vehicle parts, is guilty of a public offense and, upon
conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment pursuant to
subdivision (h) of Section 1170 of the Penal Code for 16
months, or two or three years, or by a fine of not more than
thirty thousand dollars ($30,000), or by both the fine and
imprisonment, or by imprisonment in the county jail not
exceeding one year or by a fine of not more than one thousand
dollars ($1,000) or by both the fine and imprisonment.
Amended Sec. 605, Ch. 15, Stats. 2011. Effective July 1, 2011.
Chop Shop: Exclusions
10804. (a) Section 10803 does not apply to a motor
vehicle scrap processor who, in the normal legal course of
business and in good faith, processes a motor vehicle or motor
vehicle part by crushing, compacting, or other similar
methods, if any vehicle identification number is not removed
from the motor vehicle or motor vehicle part prior to or during
the processing.

Is this some kind of veiled threat, Henry?

Check in with the "restoration" community to see what they think of your casual suggestion to use a blank case and stamp the original numbers into it. It won't go over well.

Anyone that cares to see what happens when you do this, read here:

http://www.early911sregistry.org/forums/showthread.php?80379-Authentic-vs.-Forgery&

How many engines have you built with a blank case and stamped the case with the original number? Did any of these engines go into a "numbers matching" cars? Was that disclosed to any buyers?

Scott

As an adviser to OCAT during the 90s, I am very well aware of the law. The concern of OCAT officers was documentation and intent. Receiving stolen property is a "specific intent" crime. Documentation generally negates intent.

In the 80s when I worked at the dealer, there was a plethora of 3.2 cases that had porosity oil leaks. The factory authorized a replacement case. The norm was to replace the case and install the original number.
The leaking case was returned to the factory for inspection and assumed destroyed.
The only thing that was replace was gaskets, seals and case.
Without a number

This was not my policy, it was Porsche factory.

This is not about what the Porsche dealers did in the '80's. This is about a '71 911 and you suggesting they use a new case and stamp it with the original number.

If you want to see what can happen when you do this, look here:

http://www.early911sregistry.org/forums/showthread.php?80379-Authentic-vs.-Forgery&

This is why it is bad to do what you suggest. If you can't see that, well, I don't know what to say....

Scott

Are you friggen kidding? It's an apology and I guess a veiled joke? I guess you missed the happy face as well as the point.

In fact, zero. That's not my job. Have I seen it done? yes : It was SOP at the dealer.

Do you see how stamping a blank engine case going into a 42 year old car with the original engine case number is not a good idea?

Scott

I see how making judgements about how other people live is not my job as well.
By bye sir.

The problem is that you are the one that suggested it!!!!!!

Rusty 356 makes a point of saying the car is "numbers matching". You make a point of saying you have a blank 3R case he could stamp with the original number.

To what end? To keep it "numbers matching"....

This is what I have a problem with and I am not alone. Dance around it all you want. Get all upset about your integrity being challenged. All I know if you are the one that made the suggestion.

Your ego won't let you say it was not the best idea you have come up with so you defend the suggestion. Sad....

Scott

"If all else fails" suggests that this is an option but not first or the best.

I think our problem lies in "to what end" and you assume the end is deceit. I in fact do not think that is the only reason.

I seem to remember a case of 2 904's being the same number.
Spain? or something like that?
The factory had replaced the frame with another one...and the original (withthe serial number) had been built into another car.
And this all came to light decades later.
Oh...what fun.
Bob

But first you say:

Your intention is to deceive law enforcement here. Great idea if you want to get acquainted with cell mate Bubba for some play time.

The difference is makers mark applied by the maker (dealership/factory). By applying the makers mark as an independent you are committing a forgery. This is a felony.