Glitter after rebuild

[burgermeister]

I've finished my 1000 mile break-in and found an alarming amount of glitter in the oil. Is this normal?

Engine has new Mahle P&C, new timing chains, new rocker shafts, new valve guides. Fuzz on drainplugs was what I'd expect - about double the typical 5000 mile amount I used to get before the rebuilds started.

I've been having issues with rapid valve guide wear for unknown reasons, I'm concerned that the glitter is an indication of the valve guides going bye-bye yet again.

[500_19B]

Is this the very first oil change, or have you done one (or more) previously after the first start up?

The lithium in many engine asssembly lubes can show "glitter"

[burgermeister]

'tis the first oil change. BP SAE30 break-in oil.

[Lapkritis]

That looks extremely fine in size and more grey than copper on my screen. Are you flushing all of the oil system for each rebuild? Curious about residual deposits. Did you do any bushing work on the rocker arms when you replaced the shafts? If you have the time, might be a good idea to pop off the valve covers and confirm you don't have any rockers and/or lobes wearing away due to a bound valve spring or something.

[notmytarga]

Assembly lube. It will lessen each time. Dramatically. You have dropped the oil after the breakin 20 min cycle? What did it look like then?

[burgermeister]

I'll get to the valve adjustment Saturday; will check rockers then. Might try to take a valve spring off & check exhaust valve clearance if I have the time. Color is brassy / golden in real life ... and it isn't readily attracted by magnet.

I did not touch the cam/rocker interface, so I did not do the 20 min @ 2000 RPM & oil change portion of the break-in.

Assembly lube would be nice - I hope so!

[saxen]

looks about like my oil the first time, the second there was next to no "glitter" just a few small pieces of metal on the drain plug

[AlfonsoR]

What is a recommended assembly lube? Is there one that is less apt to produce glitter?

Glad for Burg that this looks normal.

[Lapkritis]

I've done a few ring jobs in my day and haven't had anywhere near that much on a 6cyl or 8cyl job. Gold/Brass colored won't be assembly lube or rings cutting in, in my humble opinion. Rings cutting will produce grey that you would only be able to see on the filter surface. Bearings will generally produce gold or copper colored glitter... on the 911 engine there's the rocker bushings, valve guides and the bearings in the lower end that would produce copper/gold glitter.

Going back to the original post of the valve guides wearing excessively then I would question if the valve seat is squared with the guide as dimensionally true. If the valve is slightly cockeyed at the seat then you'll have the heavy wear. Might be time for a new machine shop for a second opinion if this turns to be guide related.

[notmytarga]

Another avenue to explore is to have the oil analyzed. Aluminum/Magnesium engine parts are not going to spit out metallic/magnetic debris. Horrible part wear might give metallic bits that may or may not be attracted to magnetic probes.
The next oil change will be more clear if it is assembly lube. Mine looked much the same. In Wayne's rebuild book it describes the 20 min oil change as necessary to clear out those metallic bits - several discussions over the years have asserted that it is the appearance of the lithium based assembly lube that it seen at that point - not metal. Wayne's description of expecting metal would really be a catastrophic problem. I would think that the 20 min oil change would be ideal for just about any rebuild rather than after certain work - just to flush out the non-oil lubricants and sealant remnants.

[peppy]

You ran 1000 miles on 30wt break in oil?

Mine had that milky look after 20 minutes, but I did not see any glitter.

[jcge]

burgermeister

Suggest you get some assembly lube, put it in a glass bottle with a little solvent, and give it a shake. What do you see? This may give you some peace of mind.

Suggestion above for oil analysis is an excellent one, and not too expensive either.

John

[burgermeister]

Yeah, oil analysis might be good - but there was a cooler full of oil with a high concentration of valve guide material in it from the prior set of worn out valve guides, so the results might be skewed. I'll think about it. I did make sure to purge the oil cooler this time around. Used the lawn sprinkler method. Effective, but remarkably messy - I was too lazy to get some hose that fit over the cooler line, so once the air found its way around the remaining oil I got an oil volcano in my wheelhouse ...

Yep, 1000 miles on SAE30 break in oil. It was tough keeping the engine below 4000 RPM that long, but I managed. Seems to run cooler with the SAE30 than with the 20W50 by about 10 degF - odd.

I like the assembly lube + oil idea! Gonna give that a shot tomorrow evening - no time tonight unfortunately. I'll post back with results.

Thanks!

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by burgermeister

Yeah, oil analysis might be good - but there was a cooler full of oil with a high concentration of valve guide material in it from the prior set of worn out valve guides, so the results might be skewed. I'll think about it. I did make sure to purge the oil cooler this time around. Used the lawn sprinkler method. Effective, but remarkably messy - I was too lazy to get some hose that fit over the cooler line, so once the air found its way around the remaining oil I got an oil volcano in my wheelhouse ...

Yep, 1000 miles on SAE30 break in oil. It was tough keeping the engine below 4000 RPM that long, but I managed. Seems to run cooler with the SAE30 than with the 20W50 by about 10 degF - odd.

I like the assembly lube + oil idea! Gonna give that a shot tomorrow evening - no time tonight unfortunately. I'll post back with results.

Thanks!

No offence, but why did you do that? I ask, because that is not the proper wear-in procedure as recommended by top level engine builders (including aviation). I'm not suggesting that has anything to do with what you are seeing in the oil, but just curious as to why you kept the engine below 4K RPM.

[burgermeister]

Ronnie, I did it for a number of reasons.
First, the proprietor of a local Porsche shop (who rebuilt my heads) suggested it - relatively low RPM but lots of throttle use.
Second, that's what I learned in Autoshop way back when (it was mainly avoid high RPM)
Third, a friend with a Z06 has similar break-in instructions for his car

I am not certain that it is entirely necessary after the first 20 or 30 minutes of runtime, but I don't see how it can hurt anything either.

[AlfonsoR]

Hmmm, I bet break in procedures are like opinions, almost everyone has a different method.

I'm not sure sae30 is a good idea for that long. I could understand the initial engine start and quick oil change, but for 1000 miles?

[E Sully]

Time to move on, it is what it is. 5,000 rpm would have been better to start the ring break in with oil changed sooner, but your past that now. Nothing wrong with 30 wt. Fresh oil and filter with a check on the valve clearance, run it up to 6,000 with lots of varied rpm and down hill with engine braking to get the rings seated. Maybe 500 miles and change it out again, and then it's time to bring it up to redline. Rings need pressure to seat well.

[burgermeister]

The original 911's managed without multigrade oils - as long as engine oil temps are below 210 or 220, I see no problems running SAE30 forever. But, no matter - everyone does it different, and I bet the results are not all that divergent.

Per John's suggestion, I mixed up some assembly lube with fresh motor oil, and I got instant gold-tinged glitter, a bit coarser than what's in my oil, but quite glittery. Doesn't show up as well in the video, but it is quite sparkly in person.



About 1/2 the valves were off by 0.1mm or so (1/8 turn), the rest were still spot-on.

So I think there may be hope!

[peppy]

I would say that is pretty good news. Now to start ringing it out a little.

[Outbackgeorgia]

Well, in 1973 the Porsche factory break in run was 30 minutes at full throttle, full load. Don't know what rpm, but pretty high as they did not let me into the Dyno room.
That was a brand new engine's first run, then they were installed into the car for test drives. Don't know when they changed the oil, could have been after the 30 minute break-in run.
I asked what they did if something broke, got one of those looks, as if that was not possible. None broke while I was there.
Dave