[RickC]

Try Edmunds.com for a True Market Value Report or pay Consumer Reports (not the industry supported Consumer Digest, etc.) about $5 for a list of all the true costs.

Both estimate what you should pay, and take into account how well a vehicle is selling. They'll also detail any sales discounts.

And don't just be a tough cookie with one sales person - please shop around if you know what car you want.

In 1995 I went to 6 or 7 of the Honda dealers in Chicago to deal on an Odyssey for my wife (my first new car dealings ever). Got lie after lie from most of them - I mean real bald-faced lies that you only had to read the sticker to disprove - that an LX was an EX, that they all had VTECH cams (none did then), that it was 6 cylinders (none), that a pop up aftermarket sunroof was factory installed. Incredible.

Anyway, some wanted sticker, some wanted over sticker. And one (the one I bought from) put a price down in writing that was lower than the original target price Consumer Reports said to look for. I bargained them down a little from there and the deal was done. Pretend you don't care and you're bartering in Baja and you'll be OK. And if you can, wait until Christmas time when things are slow and everybody else is broke.