Teething Problems

[Lowndes]

Hey, Dana,

IF you have an AGM type battery, you will need an AGM rated charger. AGM's need 13.5-7 volts to charge 100%. Your regular BatteryTinder will not do it. Nor will the OEM voltage regulator in you Bosch Alternator. And the Motorad ECU likes a charged battery.

I went thru this learning curve two years back when my Odyssey PC680 died (I thought) in my '99 R1100S. Bought a new battery and while waiting for it to arrive read up on AGM's, found out about the charging requirements, bought a BatteryMINDER:

"BatteryMINDer Model 2012-AGM: 12Volt-2 Amp Battery Charger Maintainer/Desulfator for Odyssey, Optima and AGM Lead-Acid Batteries - Designed for Cars, Trucks, Motorcycles, ATV, Boat, RV, etc." on Amazon.

Much more info here:

Knowledge - AGM Battery Info - VDC Electronics

I had my doubts about the "Desulfation cycle" so I connected the old PC680 to the BatteryMINDER and in a few days, the "dead" battery was back good as new. It's still running a friend's R90 somewhere in Michigan now.

EME has the AGM rated voltage reg: $39 at BOSCH - Internal Voltage Regulator BMW K & R Oilhead ; 12 31 1 739 365 / EnDuraLast

Lori there is very helpful.

Also, this volt reg can be replaced WITHOUT removing the alt, or the ABS unit, or even the front cover as per the manuals.

NOT saying this is the cause of your problem here, but my bike sure runs better with a happy battery. The battery will last much longer, too.

[tm1100s]

Resistance checks with an ohmmeter is a waste of time. AND, you need to disconnect stuff to run any tests. Gimme the battery voltage and voltage drop test results on the starter POS and ground cables and I'll tell you exactly where to look for the problem.

[Dana in Philly]

Took off the bodywork this morning. Did a visual inspection. Found this little dude unplugged:



Position is above the left-side telelever pivot. Has a single green wire coming out the back. I'm guessing it could be the problem.

Can't seem to spot it in the wiring harness images. Anybody know where it plugs in?

[twitchy]

Dana,
It might not even be something you did or didn't do. It could just be coincidental. Make sure the ignition switch is not going bad. I have had a problem with mine on both my R1100s and a K75s.

[tjs]

Did you remove the starter cover and check to see if the positive wire is tight on the threaded post? just a thought.

[Dana in Philly]

Kinda think it's that loose single-pin connection with the green wire that I pointed to above. Anybody recognize it?

Originally Posted by tjs

Did you remove the starter cover and check to see if the positive wire is tight on the threaded post? just a thought.

[brentw1]

no it is not the green wire
do has several have sujested, measure the voltages at the battery and the starter stud
when you are trying to turn it over
if

[Dana in Philly]

OK, thanks Brent. Perhaps that little connector with the green wire relates to ABS bikes (this bike isn't). I honestly can't see where it goes, and I've got the tank off. It's got a really short wire length, so it'd have to be something close.

Anyway, will get a multimeter, and report back. Today got away from me. I was hoping it'd be simple.

Originally Posted by brentw1

no it is not the green wire
do has several have sujested, measure the voltages at the battery and the starter stud
when you are trying to turn it over
if

[JimMoore]

I don't recognize that plug at all.

ETA: One of my books shows a green wire going to the coil. Could it reach up that far?

[Dana in Philly]

Nope. Could reach the battery tray, or the engine management computer plug or tray, etc. But I don't see anything it plugs to. Weird. Guessing it's ABS related. Vestigial on my bike.

Originally Posted by JimMoore

One of my books shows a green wire going to the coil. Could it reach up that far?

[Dana in Philly]

Haz multimeter.



Everything off: 13.0 volts at the battery (which is an AGM unit, BTW)

Key turned to the ON position: 12.9 to 13.0 volts (no headlight; on dash: very very dim illumination at battery, oil pressure and neutral lamps, clock running)

Starter button pressed: 12.9 to 13.0 volts

Hmmm. :: strokes chin :: Waddaya think?

Originally Posted by tm1100s

With everything OFF you would like to see 12.6volts or better. 12.4 should crank the engine, less is questionable. BUT, with the voltmeter connected to the battery, turn the key ON and see if you get a drop, then push the starter to see if you get more drop (and what are those numbers). After you have those numbers I'll try and walk you through a couple of tests to narrow down the lack of power.

[Dana in Philly]

Noob story re multimeter: brought it home, tested it, couldn't get a reading. Always 0.0. Tested a bunch of things. Was gonna return it as defective.

Finally realized that because it has a HOLD button to save the current setting, it was holding 0.0, it's initial setting.

:: headslap ::

Turned HOLD off, it works fine.

[JimMoore]

Check voltage from the positive terminal to several of the big bolts on the frame. It should show roughly the same battery voltage.

[tm1100s]

Try this. Put one voltmeter lead on the NEG battery post (not the cable but the actual terminal) and the other on the starter case or mounting bolt, then attempt to crank the engine and read what the voltage is while trying to crank. Then do the same with the POS battery terminal the the battery cable connedtion at the starter (on the mounting bolt not the cable terminal end), crank and read the voltage. Voltage should be in the .200 - .350volt range and at most should be less than half a volt on both sides. You want the meter to be attached between the same two points as the POS cable and ground cable. This is a voltage drop test. It tests power and ground resistance to the starter while it's operating.

[tm1100s]

Originally Posted by JimMoore

Check voltage from the positive terminal to several of the big bolts on the frame. It should show roughly the same battery voltage.

The problem with a test like this is that even if there is only one strand of wire in the ground or POS battery cable it'll still give you system voltage. An ohmmeter reading will do exactly the same using it's internal 3v test voltage under about .1amp. But under a load, failure occurs because the pathway lacks the ability to carry any amperage.

[Dana in Philly]

Wait a sec. Those three readings I gave you earlier. They were at the battery posts. You want me to re-run those with the voltmeter leads on the cable ends instead, a little back from the posts themselves? Was I doing something dumb there?

Originally Posted by tm1100s

Try this. Put one voltmeter lead on the NEG battery post (not the cable but the actual terminal) and the other on the starter case or mounting bolt, then attempt to crank the engine and read what the voltage is while trying to crank. Then do the same with the POS battery terminal the the battery cable connedtion at the starter (on the mounting bolt not the cable terminal end), crank and read the voltage. Voltage should be in the .200 - .350volt range and at most should be less than half a volt on both sides. You want the meter to be attached between the same two points as the POS cable and ground cable. This is a voltage drop test. It tests power and ground resistance to the starter while it's operating.

[Dana in Philly]

Will do shortly, and report.

Originally Posted by tm1100s

Try this. Put one voltmeter lead on the NEG battery post (not the cable but the actual terminal) and the other on the starter case or mounting bolt, then attempt to crank the engine and read what the voltage is while trying to crank. Then do the same with the POS battery terminal the the battery cable connedtion at the starter (on the mounting bolt not the cable terminal end), crank and read the voltage. Voltage should be in the .200 - .350volt range and at most should be less than half a volt on both sides. You want the meter to be attached between the same two points as the POS cable and ground cable. This is a voltage drop test. It tests power and ground resistance to the starter while it's operating.

[Dana in Philly]

And remember, at this point, there's no crankin' going on. I press the starter. Silence. But will do that second round of tests.

[Dana in Philly]

OK, tm, did both of those tests, 0.0 volts each time at the meter. [Later edit -- looks like it matters whether I was touching the post or the cable connected to the post, which is bizarre. Scroll down to see results when I had the lead on the cable at the post.]

A couple of other things to report:

- Probably nothing, but when we keyed to ON, after a minute or two, the fuel pump spun up and pressurized, and the dash lights fully illuminated. [Later edit: was likely because I had touched the battery neg cable with the meter lead.]

- First test (neg battery post, starter cover), when I touched the cover with the meter's lead, there was an audible click. That's the click I'd been hearing. It's coming from the starter.

- Diane (at the handlebar start button) reported hearing a repeated soft clicking sound from the front right side fuse/relay box area. Put my ear there. Yup, something in there's clicking. Relief relay? Just checked again. The soft clicking/tapping sound starts as soon as the key is turned to ON, gets a little faster with time, evens out at 2/sec.

Originally Posted by tm1100s

Try this. Put one voltmeter lead on the NEG battery post (not the cable but the actual terminal) and the other on the starter case or mounting bolt, then attempt to crank the engine and read what the voltage is while trying to crank. Then do the same with the POS battery terminal the the battery cable connedtion at the starter (on the mounting bolt not the cable terminal end), crank and read the voltage. Voltage should be in the .200 - .350volt range and at most should be less than half a volt on both sides. You want the meter to be attached between the same two points as the POS cable and ground cable. This is a voltage drop test. It tests power and ground resistance to the starter while it's operating.

[tm1100s]

Originally Posted by Dana in Philly

And remember, at this point, there's no crankin' going on. I press the starter. Silence. But will do that second round of tests.

I guess you could say the the test occurs at the cable attachment points, not on the cables themselves. The meter will probably be hunting for reading when you touch the test leads. When you try and crank with the starter button the reading will stabilize and that's the reading we want. If it keeps hunting then we know that even though you asked the starter to do some work, it's not, and the problem lies in the control circuit that makes the starter work and not the power side. If we do get a reading then it'll be high and close to system voltage, otherwise the engine will have cranked.

I don't remember if you said that you hear the fuel pump run when the key is turned on.