IMS bearing on boxsters

[jjflash]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Most overblown issue I've ever read about (even if it happens to me tomorrow).

You want security, buy a Toyota...oh that's right...they turn out to have failure points too. Every car and engine design has design and manufacturing and procurement items that turn out, over time, to not be the best idea. How wonderful is hindsight.

I always love it when people ask for a great deal on a low volume part without knowing anything about the research and design costs that were necessary to come up with the design in the first place. (I used to be responsible for a product that sold about 100 units a year and which required development costs of around $2 million a year. Of course folks wanted the product at what they perceived to be the manufacturing cost. Sorry folks, profit is the motive that produces such products. It isn't a dirty word. And without it you don't have the possibility of the product ...unless you design it and manufacture it yourself. Feel free to.)

Jake is entitled to make money for developing the support and training behind the product. Charles for the research that led to the product.

And there are replacements for the single and the dual bearing IMS bearings....the amounts of misinformation floating around is amazing.

To quote from LN's web site:

"On a new or remanufactured engine the only "preventative" measure that can be taken short of our retrofit kits is to remove the seal off the front of the IMS bearing, to allow for engine oil to lubricate the bearing. Alternatively, you can repack the bearing with a quality synthetic bearing grease and put a new seal (available from any place that sells bearings).

With proper lubrication and more frequent oil changes, longevity of your original IMS can be greatly extended. Our retrofit kits use ceramic bearings with significantly longer service life and come with seals removed for improved oiling as well.

LN Engineering offers three IMS solutions -

* single row IMS retrofit kit (fits most MY01-05 M96 engines)
* dual row IMS retrofit kit (fits most MY97-00 M96 engines)
* and our IMS upgrade which requires engine disassembly to remove and send in your IMS to us for our triple-bearing upgrade & ims reconditioning service"

Hi Mike,

I'm definitely just getting my feet wet in the Boxster world and I'm already aware that you have made some major contributions to the community via your website. I also agree with 99% of your post above, especially regarding any carping about price for LN's products and/or their marketing. These things are always eventually handled by the market itself and a high-quality product will succeed or fail on that basis.

My only quibble is with your statement about the issue being "overblown." If you are referring to the "discussion" of the IMS fixes and their price points, then I agree. However, it is my VERY newbie understanding, that the problem of IMS failure itself is not overblown, and is something that any smart, conscientious owner is going to want address and probably sooner rather than later.

If I'm misinterpreting your statement as to what's "overblown," my bad. If I'm misunderstanding the breadth and potential severity of the IMS in general, I'll be very pleased to know that.

Again, thanks for your contributions!

[mikefocke]

heck yes to those whose cars experience it.

But not every engine will fail that way. Variations in manufacturing tolerances and use and maintenance (the exact combination of which we don't know about) cause some engines to fail and even some cars/drivers have had multiple failures.

My point was there is too much chatter about it from too many people who know little about it and haven't done the research via visiting the best sources of information. And too many postings asking for the same info when the simple use of a search command to look through past messages would bring them more than they ever wanted to know about the subject..some of it true. When one of every 3 or 4 postings asks the same question in the most provocative language it makes the Boxster forums so much less fun.

[911ballin]

sorry but less fun of what!
the forum purpuse is to understand and get help about the cars and save money not just give jokes and read something different taht the news
the ims is most potencial problems after the cylinder failure in pre 2000 boxsters ! this is gonna happen to any m96 engine soon later if is not taking care! i read you web is interesting , your topic about ims is not all complete there but seems real worls owner will be better to fix this matter and have a decent engine that run that upgrade the stereo or change window switch of a car that can not run if ims failure happen seems like every place i read about this matter is the story not complete , hope with the new pelican parts book many owners will task this matter and other litle ones but the real thing is also get desent price in the parts
what options are there is just one company that OFFER A KIT OR BETTER BEARING ?? could be fair price talking fair mean 300-400$ is well money for bearing and flage ! not 600$

[mikefocke]

I guess you and I disagree on several points.
1. Not every IMS bearing will fail.
2. The purpose of a forum like this is different to everyone who comes here.
3. The forum becomes less pleasant when people post repetitious postings on already covered topics full of excited language.
4. Capitalization is important to readability. So is spelling.

You obviously have never had to price a low volume product. If the developer works months to figure out the problem and months to source the right replacement parts and put together a kit, document the issues, run a web site and respond to messages (and yes, I've talked to Jake and Charles both online and by voice at great length) he may have thousands of hours invested. They are entitled to be compensated for that time and effort. As there have been somewhat more than 100 IMS bearings installed...$600 works out to $100 each for the kit and $500 for development and support which means the developer has only recovered $50k for all his previous development time and his ongoing support time.

[eclou]

is there any difference in IMS reliability in 2.5/2.7 vs 3.2l cars?

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Most overblown issue I've ever read about (even if it happens to me tomorrow).

You want security, buy a Toyota...oh that's right...they turn out to have failure points too. Every car and engine design has design and manufacturing and procurement items that turn out, over time, to not be the best idea. How wonderful is hindsight.

I always love it when people ask for a great deal on a low volume part without knowing anything about the research and design costs that were necessary to come up with the design in the first place. (I used to be responsible for a product that sold about 100 units a year and which required development costs of around $2 million a year. Of course folks wanted the product at what they perceived to be the manufacturing cost. Sorry folks, profit is the motive that produces such products. It isn't a dirty word. And without it you don't have the possibility of the product ...unless you design it and manufacture it yourself. Feel free to.)

Jake is entitled to make money for developing the support and training behind the product. Charles for the research that led to the product.

And there are replacements for the single and the dual bearing IMS bearings....the amounts of misinformation floating around is amazing.

To quote from LN's web site:

"On a new or remanufactured engine the only "preventative" measure that can be taken short of our retrofit kits is to remove the seal off the front of the IMS bearing, to allow for engine oil to lubricate the bearing. Alternatively, you can repack the bearing with a quality synthetic bearing grease and put a new seal (available from any place that sells bearings).

With proper lubrication and more frequent oil changes, longevity of your original IMS can be greatly extended. Our retrofit kits use ceramic bearings with significantly longer service life and come with seals removed for improved oiling as well.

LN Engineering offers three IMS solutions -

* single row IMS retrofit kit (fits most MY01-05 M96 engines)
* dual row IMS retrofit kit (fits most MY97-00 M96 engines)
* and our IMS upgrade which requires engine disassembly to remove and send in your IMS to us for our triple-bearing upgrade & ims reconditioning service"

Everyone is entitled to make a living. However I feel like I'm being gouged here. Like the Porsche dealer charging $50/gallon for $7/gallon coolant. I have a right to *****.


I've researched the IMS issue well before LN/Raby even had a boxster. It never bothered me, until now. It's a little noisey lately. I may come up with my own oil fed fix or maybe it will be simpler to do a similar ceramic bearing job like LN. I haven't decided yet.

After all the LN is nothing special, it's an off the shelf NSK bearing with ceramic balls in them.


I'm not in the parts business. However shall i decide to enter it, be sure I will come out with special pricing, and if I come up with a superior design I will be sure to charge you $800 or more if you want one. How does that sound? Charge what the market will bear right?

[boxhead]

BTW MF, I applaud your original FAQ on boxsters. However I believe you have become complacent in accepting the shortcomings of the platform. You'd be singing a different song if IMS failure happened to you.

As for me, I have 2 boxsters. A race car and a street car. The race car's engine blew at 84K miles because of a failed AO separator --the IMS bearing was/is TIGHT as ever-- I still love both cars.

[911ballin]

[the people of ims web said yes will fail the only thing is when is the difficult think to say!~
1. Not every IMS bearing will fail.

3. The forum becomes less pleasant when people post repetitious postings on already . not so sure check how many post are in this boxster forum daily !and how many are about problems or people wanting to knwo what are common faults cars 80% of the last 3 weeks posts,

You obviously have never had to price a low volume product. If the developer works months to figure out the problem and months to source the right replacement parts and put together a kit, document the issues, run a web site and respond to messages (and yes, I've talked to Jake and Charles both online and by voice at great length) he may have thousands of hours invested. They are entitled to be compensated for that time and effort. As there have been somewhat more than 100 IMS bearings installed...$600 works out to $100 each for the kit and $500 for development and support !! they alredy make there money back from peoplethat race the boxsters and 996 why because they ship the whole shaft for 3 bearing upgrade wich is 1300$ , making a 300$ profit from each buyer is fair if 50 people buy in 3 months is 15k dollares profit juts with the people of simple bearing a profit of $500 x 50 25k i think they need to be alittle more fare..!

[Wayne 962]

One of the reasons why this topic is repeated again and again is because it is continually evolving. I just came up with a method to install the new bearing that doesn't require the use of the camshaft timing tool. I have a 5-chain motor on the bench in my garage here, and a 3-chain motor on the stand that we will be testing this week. I will put this information on the site as soon as it's finalized and reviewed.

As for the price of the kit, I've been told that the actual parts are expensive. The bearing alone costs $85 or something close to that. I believe that in the future, there will be a kit that will replace that bearing with a more standard bearing, but then you're back at the same issue again - when will it fail. As I wrote in my book:

Porsche designed these motors using a sealed ball bearing that is pressed into the intermediate shaft. These types of bearings are typically used in things like copy machines and other machinery used in dry conditions. In theory, the area where Porsche designed the bearing to sit is supposed to be dry. However, after years of use within the engine, it would appear that oil and contaminants from the engine seep past the bearing seal, wash out the original lubricant and become trapped inside. The result is that the bearing now operates in a less-than-ideal environment and begins to wear prematurely.

As for repetition of stuff, I don't mind the open and continuous of issues that are constantly evolving.

-Wayne

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by eric523

I think $600 to save a $15k motor is worth it, but that's me. I'm not a fan of flat6's marketing model either, but that has nothing to do with LN engineering and/or the part they offer.

I am anxious to see what you come up with that's cheaper and can allow you to warranty someones $15k motor.

FYI factory motors are $10k tops. Under $5k used if you shop around.


The point is, $600 is pricey IMO considering it gives you no warranty and no assurances past the original part. It's the SAME bearing race! Now if you don't know or don't care and are oblivious to what that means and would rather spout "you gets what you pays for", then please pass this discussion. But for those of us who know the difference, I think there's room for improvement.

[boxhead]

Wayne you still didn't answer my question. Was the $100 kit you referenced a typo, mistake, what gives??

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by boxhead

Wayne you still didn't answer my question. Was the $100 kit you referenced a typo, mistake, what gives??

I've been working on finishing up the book, not putting together the kit yet. When it becomes available, it will be on the site. Right now, the LN Engineering kit is the only one available.

Thx,

Wayne

[eric523]

Originally Posted by boxhead

FYI factory motors are $10k tops. Under $5k used if you shop around.


The point is, $600 is pricey IMO considering it gives you no warranty and no assurances past the original part. It's the SAME bearing race! Now if you don't know or don't care and are oblivious to what that means and would rather spout "you gets what you pays for", then please pass this discussion. But for those of us who know the difference, I think there's room for improvement.

For my info, how many motors have you bought from the factory? How many motors have you seen fail? How many dead boxster motors do you have stacked in your garage? How many people have you had to tell the motor replacement is going to cost more than the value of their car?

MOST of the people on this forum must include install and shipping and other costs when pricing a motor.
So $15k isn't a bad estimate, especially with the February Porsche price increases. All of the prices I looked at today in PET are above $12k with a CORE. Don't know where your $10k tops comes from.

[911ballin]

so wayne can you work in a better price lets seem maybe 500$ 480$ !
even you mention you though was a little price side , what is importan to understand is that you pay 600$ thats it!!!! is mechanic time involve in case you don't have tools or want to work in car! get clutch kit! when you are there get a rear flaywheel seal also , service the tranny with new oil,,and who know waht else specila tools !! men is alot of money , I think a better price that they still making profit but be more fare whit the real world people right now with this economy situation!

[mikefocke]

IMS ball bearings in the LN hybrid ceramic bearing are 100% solid silicon nitride, not coated.

[mikefocke]

Originally Posted by boxhead

BTW MF, I applaud your original FAQ on boxsters. However I believe you have become complacent in accepting the shortcomings of the platform. You'd be singing a different song if IMS failure happened to you.

my web page on the problem areas in a Boxster 986? Or the 10 best and 10 worst things about a Boxster web page? I believe I've been as candid as anyone, eschewing both the fanboy and the sky-is-falling positions. I also host a what can you do if your engine blows web page. Doesn't sound complacent to me. Sounds like someone who worked to get the facts out there for anyone else to judge.

I doubt I post many messages without expressing that it could happen to me tomorrow. Or expressing sympathy to those to whom it has.

In postings I've been critical or questioning of Porsche, NHTSA, Jake, Charles, Wayne and probably anyone else involved at one time or the other. I've tried hard to get my facts right and to research using all the sources I can. Those who read me should question my facts, do their own research and form their own opinions.

I do the research, I chose the car, I chose the warranty, I chose the oil, I chose the maintenance interval, I chose to update my IMS, I chose to take on the risk. Or not. And so do you every time you buy a car. And there are times in your life you can afford to buy a Porsche, and times you can't or shouldn't. It is your job to understand the risks and potential costs and assess if you can afford them.

I don't think I ever say there is no risk, I just say the risk is less than some make it out to be and I choose not to worry too much about it despite what I know. If you feel differently, feel free to express the facts and reasoning behind your thinking.

Compared to other things you may have to deal with in a lifetime, IMS failure is generally a nothingburger. There are things you can't spend money to fix, those are the serious things.

[Wayne 962]

The Boxster and the 996 originally cost about $50K and $90K respectively. These are not cheap cars, and they are high performance, relatively low-production cars as well. The parts are not cheap like Honda parts or even BMW parts. It's the price of entry to own and drive these fine automobiles. Everyone has the sticker shock syndrome first time they look into buying parts (I certainly had it with my first Porsche, a 914). But then you learn and know. The Boxster is a great car to drive and own, and maintaining it is not inexpensive by any means. But, if you can do the work yourself, you save a tremendous amount of money. Most Pelican customers don't begrudge the prices of parts because they know they are purchasing the best quality parts, and they are also saving a *ton* of money by learning how to do it themselves. Just wait until these Boxster articles are up on the site (next month maybe?). You guys will be blown away...

-Wayne

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by eric523

For my info, how many motors have you bought from the factory? How many motors have you seen fail? How many dead boxster motors do you have stacked in your garage? How many people have you had to tell the motor replacement is going to cost more than the value of their car?

MOST of the people on this forum must include install and shipping and other costs when pricing a motor.
So $15k isn't a bad estimate, especially with the February Porsche price increases. All of the prices I looked at today in PET are above $12k with a CORE. Don't know where your $10k tops comes from.

I have no idea where you're going with that first paragraph, and is moot. I've rebuilt a few motors, how about you?




You don't have a 15k replacement motor. Unless the car is fresh off the showroom floor It most likely has some mileage, and is USED. Therefore, sir, replacement cost is what you will get. That's what the insurance adjuster said. Used motors can be had for 6-7 outright, and with labor for RR gets you 10k.


If you would like to overpay, go right ahead. Buy the $50/gallon coolant. Go ahead and buy the LN bearing. Buy the lower temp themostat while you're at it. Questionable if it performs any better, but it will makes you feel better, knock yourself out

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

The Boxster and the 996 originally cost about $50K and $90K respectively. These are not cheap cars, and they are high performance, relatively low-production cars as well. The parts are not cheap like Honda parts or even BMW parts. It's the price of entry to own and drive these fine automobiles. Everyone has the sticker shock syndrome first time they look into buying parts (I certainly had it with my first Porsche, a 914). But then you learn and know. The Boxster is a great car to drive and own, and maintaining it is not inexpensive by any means. But, if you can do the work yourself, you save a tremendous amount of money. Most Pelican customers don't begrudge the prices of parts because they know they are purchasing the best quality parts, and they are also saving a *ton* of money by learning how to do it themselves. Just wait until these Boxster articles are up on the site (next month maybe?). You guys will be blown away...

-Wayne

That's all fine. But they DO use a cheap honda NSK bearing. And that's the argument I'm making. People who don't know any better, think it's a super duper Porsche bearing that should cost Porsche prices. I'm making the point that an off the shelf NSK bearing with ceramic balls is "packaged and marketed" as a superior fix at superior prices, but no warranty? Something doesn't jive, ESPECIALLY since it uses the exact same race.

[eric523]

Originally Posted by boxhead

I have no idea where you're going with that first paragraph, and is moot. I've rebuilt a few motors, how about you?




You don't have a 15k replacement motor. Unless the car is fresh off the showroom floor It most likely has some mileage, and is USED. Therefore, sir, replacement cost is what you will get. That's what the insurance adjuster said. Used motors can be had for 6-7 outright, and with labor for RR gets you 10k.


If you would like to overpay, go right ahead. Buy the $50/gallon coolant. Go ahead and buy the LN bearing. Buy the lower temp themostat while you're at it. Questionable if it performs any better, but it will makes you feel better, knock yourself out

My point in the first paragraph is YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT because you have never bought a remanufactured Porsche factory motor! You are quoting some dip**** insurance adjuster... And yes, I have rebuilt motors, there are three in process in my engine room right now.

A brand new Porsche motor cost over $20k, a reman Porsche motor costs over $12k with your CORE. MOST of the early reman motor were actually new motors, but the ones being sold now are rebuilt units WITH warranties. I would NEVER replace a bad motor with a used motor with unknown history/problems etc that someone put on ebay.

I don't overpay for anything. I put quality equipment on my car, and anyone's I work on. I warranty all of my work. Quality equipment will not always be the cheapest stuff available. Yes, coolant is $34 a gallon...wooopie, cheaper than a tank of gas. Never seen, heard, recommended, or used a lower temp thermostat on boxster motor so again, I don't know what you're talking about.

It is easy to see why there is so much confusion and misinformation out there! The boards are a good resource, but anyone can jump on and spout off their *facts* that they heard once from some guy...